2010 Challenge Rules---First Draft

You could do it two ways:

1-Charge the budget nothing since safety bellhousings are not a budgeted item. This would work, but in my mind is kind of getting away with something just because they didn't say you couldn't. I guess that all depends on your mindset. Heck, delete all these posts, do it, and cause a rule change for next year.

2-Charge the difference in price between a standard bellhousing replacement, and one made to replace a bellhousing and adapter. Document both prices with printouts or screen shots and no one could complain.

If SFI bellhousings are free in the budget (I'm not sure, I haven't looked into them), and nothing specifies that they have to be for a specific application, then what engine and trans you bolt the SFI bellhousing to is irrelevant.

You found a loophole. Use it.

I think you guys are getting a little ambitious with your rule bending. Note the last line in the safety rules:

The safety items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage.

The way I read this, if you get a performance advantage then you have to charge the budget. So, if your SFI bellhousing bolts an M22 to a SBC and replaces a cast bellhousing you had that bolted an M22 to a SBC, then no charge to the budget. If your bellhousing mates a T5 to a SBC where you used to have a 60° V6, thus giving a performance advantage, the budget gets charged. Of course, interpretation is 9/10ths of the law....or something like that.

Bryce

I like Mr. Joshua's thinking about charging the difference between the stock sfi bellhousing + adapter vs. the sfi bellhousing that is the adapter. If that makes any sense.

To use Nashco's example you would compare an SFI bellhousing that mates a 60 deg V6 and a T5 plus and adapter for the 60 deg trans to a SBC vs. an SFI bellhousing that mates a T5 to a SBC. The difference is what goes in the budget, but that is just how I would see it.

There isn't a difference in price between the adapter SFI Belhousing and a stock one. Or at least there are stock ones that are more expensive. There is also a stock non SFI belhousing that would attach the engine to the transmission, but the spacing is a little different. The adapter would be nothing more than a spacer. I would think that if I budget for a stock bellhousing and a spacer, I would be within the rules, but if I could avoid the cost of either bellhousing it could be useful to pay for something else on the build.

I have two questions.

I'm planning on putting a thick scattershield in our car, because we'll be using a cheap eBay clutch. Although the chances of it asploding are next to zero, the fact remains it's not as safe as a name-brand or OEM unit, and it'll be making lots of power. I was fully prepared to take the budget hit for this,because as a student-powered project, safety is paramount and one accident will be the end of our program. But with the discussion on SFI bellhousings, does this mean we can run a SFI scattershield without budgeting it? It adds no performance gains, so that would make sense.

Second question is regarding AFR meters and widebands. We learned at the Challenge last year that widebands and AFR gauges are not budgeted, as they're (understandably) considered a safety item and keep people from blowing up engines on the drag strip trying to get that last 1/10th out of the car at the end of the day. Can I get someone to confirm this, and where exactly is the line drawn for telemetry? Can we run EGT gauges without budgeting them, or things like that? Technically we don't need water temp, oil pressure, or stuff like that because they don't make us go faster, but they help us keep our connecting rods inside the block.

it says it somewhere in some rule thread... and per told us that...

we chose to use a LM1 we had laying around, and also because it would just unplug and the car would run fine without it, if somebody made a hubub.

the car cannot depend on the wideband to run right though

I don't think they are a safety item, so much as they are a tool, and tools don't count. That said, while I may tune with one, it won't be on the vehicle when it sees competition, because at that point it's part of the car IMO, and not a tool.

So as long as the wideband is independent of the ECU, it doesn't have to be budgeted.

I think that as long as it's used for monitoring at that point, it doesn't count towards budget. At least... i hope. I've got wideband, wideband display, water temp, oil temp, oil pressure, egt, and boost guages.

And none of those are budgeted?

If they end up having to be budgeted, then i'll remove them for the Challenge. They're just being used as monitors, not fed into the ECU in any way, nor will they if i end up squirting the car, either.

But as of right now? No, i'm not counting them in the budget. If i did, then my budget is probably exhausted. That whole setup wasn't real cheap. Bought new, and i didn't skimp out because i'm anal retentive and wanted it all to match.

93celicaGT2 wrote: If they end up having to be budgeted, then i'll remove them for the Challenge. They're just being used as monitors, not fed into the ECU in any way, nor will they if i end up squirting the car, either. But as of right now? No, i'm not counting them in the budget. If i did, then my budget is probably exhausted. That whole setup wasn't real cheap. Bought new, and i didn't skimp out because i'm anal retentive and wanted it all to match.

That's good to know, that gives me some much-needed breathing room.

Well, wait for the powers that be to give the final ruling. Either way for me, it's not going to be counted. If the powers that be say that they're fine and don't need to be counted along as they're for monitoring only, then i'm good.

If they say that they have to be counted, them i'm removing them upon arrival to Gainesville. I'm not real keen on almost $600 worth of guages tanking my budget. But you'd best believe they'll be installed on the drive down.

Yeah, I can see that if you spent $600 on gauges. I've looked high and low and pieced together our suite for less than $100, but that's still money I'd rather spend elsewhere if I can.

Sure, understandable. If i was counting on them being counted in the budget, i would have just bought used Autometer guages off of Craigslist or something. And there's still a chance i may do so if it comes down to guages being counted and i'm not 100% comfy running without my vital signs being visible. Especially now that Megasquirt is a definite go. I'm not going to run blind if i'm going to be huffing a full 22psi through this thing.

93celicaGT2 wrote: i would have just bought used Autometer guages off of Craigslist or something. I'm not going to run blind if i'm going to be huffing a full 22psi through this thing.

...not that there's anything wrong with that....

unevolved wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: i would have just bought used Autometer guages off of Craigslist or something. I'm not going to run blind if i'm going to be huffing a full 22psi through this thing.

...not that there's anything wrong with that....

Nope... nothing wrong with Autometer guages at all. I just find them a little hard to read at night at a glance, especially where i have to place some of these things. And plus the latent ricer in me likes the pretty blues and reds, and the feeling that i'm piloting the starship enterprise with everything lit up.

But no... there is CERTAINLY nothing wrong with huffing 22psi. I won't do it blind if i can help it though. This is my DD, and it's powered by a very primitive 12v truck motor with a 20 year old turbo slapped on it, running a LOT of 20 year old original accessories. This thing defies physics and/or logic. It should have blown up when i drove it home.

OK, so long as 22psi is allowed we're all good here.

Fancy aftermarket gauges definitely count in the budget, as they would increase concourse points. Feel free to remove them from the car if you don't want to take the budget hit. Expect the holes in the dash to reduce concourse points.

Gauges that came with the car are included in the purchase price.

SVreX wrote: Fancy aftermarket gauges definitely count in the budget, as they would increase concourse points. Feel free to remove them from the car if you don't want to take the budget hit. Expect the holes in the dash to reduce concourse points. Gauges that came with the car are included in the purchase price.

So the solution would be to have two gauge panels? One with a full suite of gauges for the dynamic events, and the other with a cheap tach and oil pressure gauge for the concours event? I noticed a lot of teams don't run the dynamic events in the same configurations they're judged in the concours (removed hoods, bumpers, etc).

AFR gauges don't count, but other gauges do. Unless they're crappy. Wait, what?

Just playing devil's advocate here. Can we get an official word on this?

i think most people kept the cars identical (sans tires, etc) to concourse...

this past year hoods were commonly removed because it was HOT AS CRAP out.

Oh, I know, that was a little over the top, but I'd love to know what the official stance on this is.

unevolved wrote: AFR gauges don't count, but other gauges do. Unless they're crappy. Wait, what? Just playing devil's advocate here. Can we get an official word on this?

Yeah, i'm going to want to hear official ruling on this as well. If an indicator guage such as boost level or water temperature counts towards budget, then i would think A/F display and wideband would count as well.

My stock boosted car didn't even have a boost gauge, stock. How screwed up is that?

Guys, sorry to say this but, apart from a few safety items listed specifically, if it is on the car when competing or being judged it counts towards budget.

All and any gauges will count, which is why I had a 4 in 1 eBay crapola gauge in the S10 last year, and next year will have a complete set of Smiths gauges from my $50 parts Triumph Stag.

This is my take and I am not a judge but I think it is clear that with the few exceptions for safety EVERYTHING on the car has to be budgeted.