$2011 Challenge

What did your E28 run in the 1/4, oldtin? (Just out of interest.)

SVreX wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

SVreX wrote: Where are the detailed results posted?

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/media/img/events/recap/2010%20CHALLENGE%20RESULTS%20FOR%20POST.pdf

That link is no good.

Interesting.

You'll note that the link is within GRM's website- and if you go to the Challenge update pages, the one with the results- between the text and the first video, you'll see the link to the .pdf file of the detailed results.

It was not hard to find.

Eric

alfadriver wrote:

oldtin wrote: From what I saw, they have to do all three things really well to be a top 10 car. Two out of three won't get it when well sorted, great looking cars show up and have giant turbos or v8s or jeeps that handle or when subie powered wartburgs aren't the most outlandish thing to show up. I had a blast, And recommend it to anyone, but I wouldn't count on a well prepped dd car landing in the top 10, or 15.

Look at the results a little closer, then. 2/3 really well, the 3rd darned well, and top 10. Like I posted- if you could have done almost FTD, and a 15 second drag- a really clean car would have netted you 7th. No idea why I bring this up, as the odds of me being in Florida in October is very, very thin... But I like to see others give it a shot. Eric

OK, so I looked harder, and I'm afraid I'm gonna have to disagree.

I did the math using your example.

"Almost FTD" Of course, this isn't well defined. Only one car broke into the 32's. So, let's give your hypothetical car a 33.2. That would be 3rd place, very tight to the 2nd place car. If I add the 15 second drag time you proposed, the total time would be 48.2 seconds, which would have netted a score of 92.286 against Westside's 44.484.

What would the concourse score for a very clean car be? Well, the HIGHEST total score was 22.8. 4 cars scored 21. and 8 cars scored 20., but the VAST MAJORITY of these cars were NOT cleaned up street drivers. They were radical builds. Of the 12, there were 4 cars that I don't personally remember, so they might have been clean street drivers, but I don't think so. So let's say your theoretical car scored a 20 on the concourse.

The dynamic score of 92.286 + the concourse score of 20/4 = the total score of your theoretical car would have been 97.286.

This would have put the car in 44th place this year, NOT 7th.

Even if you HAD FTD (32.3), your theoretical car with a 15 second drag pass and a score of 20 on the concourse would have had a total score of 99.04, netting it 40th place overall.

15's simply are NOT good enough any more.

In reply to Luke,

It was running consistent 17.3s. I think it would have been in the 16s with a working fuel transfer pump. There is potential with e28s - the UTCC e28 is a good example. In my head, the challenge e28 should have looked like this... - 1900 lb e28 with e34 m5 engine. Sold it on Saturday - on to the next...

14.0 was the slowest drag time in the top 10. Concourse points get more subjective so perhaps not just clean - might need some cool factor to go with it - whatever that is for the year.

In reply to SVreX:

Uh, your math is bad. The concours score is already 100/4, you don't have to make it that much less.

Both 8th and 9th had a dynamic score over 49- 49.4 and 49.9, so their dynamic points were 90 and 89. Both scored over 20 in the concours.

So if you score a 48.2, dynamic score of 92.3, and a concours of 20, that's 112.3 points, or 8th. Tie for FTD + 15 second drag = 32.3 + 15.0 = 47.3, or 94.0 dynamic, and since you only need 111.5 to top 10, then your "stock" car only needed 17.5 concours points to get into the top 10.

My example is External combustion Miata- one second quicker in the autocross (32.9 instead of 33.9), one second slower in the drag race (15.0 vs. 14.0), and 20.3 concours- you get 7th place.

So 15's are still good enough for top 10.

Eric

Ooops- you are right. I divided twice.

But I don't have time to walk through the math again right now.

I would note that only 1 car made the top 20 that ran 15's, and none made the top 10.

I think the scoring is good the way it is. This is a sports car magazine and should be geared toward the autocross. And this is coming from someone that built a drag car (though my times don't show it "long story") and will probably be back with a drag car (turbocharged 350 with a powerglide). I know that my car will not be great at the autocross and this will hurt my autocross but drag racing is what I know and how my car is built. I plan to build an autocrosser for the 2012 event but I have a steep learning curve. So take it for what it is worth from a drag racer, the format should favor the autocrossers, besides these cars are getting scary fast in the drags and the autocross is safer.

alfadriver wrote: Can I make a suggestion? If you plan on running a DD for the challenge, focus on two things: 1) Make the car as clean as possible. you will not win any innovation awards for your DD, but you will also not be killed by having a butt ugly car. If you have paint problems, read Per's articles WRT the Alfa- he did remarkable work with a spray bomb. Spend two weekends detailing the car to be cleaner than new. (and you'll enjoy sitting in it on your drive to work). 2) spend next summer autocrossing it, and making it as quick as possible for that. Whatever it takes- if you have budget for basic upgrades, including tires, just focus on a TIGHT and easy to drive autocross car. If you do that, you WILL place in the top 20. Maybe even top 10. Check the scores- a good autocross time + a clean car will do very, very well. +13thbillion to the pride in knowing you can drive the car back home and to work. IMHO, most challenge cars lack focus and development. Starting with a good DD and focusing on two of the 3 items will get you a good score. Eric

Wisdom. I don't see a top 10 out of the effort, and probably not a top 20, but top half? Sure.

Here's the build thread on my old CRX. http://dilysimotorsports.com/CRX.htm After competing in the challenge and scoring in the top half, it served as my daily driver for 4 years, after which I sold it for $4500.

Sofa King wrote: I don't know if this question is too big a jump from the topic, but talk about what it takes to be competitive started me thinking about the scoring system currently in place. I have done two Challenges 2004 and 2009, and the scoring changed since 04. I can't get my head around whether or not the change was good or bad, and if there was discussion about the difference between the two methods, I missed it. The original system took the drag times and the autocross times separately and assigned a percentile to each and then added the percentiles together, plus concourse to get the total. The current system adds the 2 times together and then assigns a percentile to the total. My question is, does the new system favor one of the two events? It seems to me that the potential variance in time in the autocross is greater than in the drags. On the other hand as you get closer to the top of the leader board fractions of a second become more precious in both events. I am curious to hear opinions on what is actually the best and most fair way to compare the cars. I know that no system would please everyone, and in the grand scheme of things, it probably doesn't matter. It certainly doesn't impact whether I would build a car or not, or even what kind of car I would build, but I am curious if this is really the best way to rank the competitors. I think that I favor a system that would assign points for each place in each event and add the totals together to get an overall score. To some extent, I believe that is pretty close to the earlier method. If I remember correctly the year that the yellow 280zx won the white RX7 was third, but would have won had the next year's scoring system been used, and in fact it came back the next year and did win. So the scoring system does matter, but what system most accurately crowns the best triathlete?

I think that the added together autox and 1/4 times are one of the best changes in the history of the challenge evolution.

If anything scoring wise is to be tweaked, I'd vote concourse. As it sits, a very clean car can get beaten by a dirty, but very cool car. That's OK if the criteria is coolness, but if that's the case, don't call it a concourse. I love seeing hyper-detailed builds. I love seeing crazy E36 M3. I don't love seeing them trying to compete for the same set of points. Also, perhaps with 5 judges, it would be worthwhile to do a "drop the high and low and average the rest" system like they do in the olympics. Seeing the wide range of scores from 5 different people allegedly looking at the same car only adds to the "moving target" frustration of trying to build for the concourse.

I'm working really hard not to look at the numbers too much; my background being in mathematics. What I recenlty realized is that you know that the top drag time will be about 10.6 seconds (If Andy comes, or 10.8 .. Go Westside!)...... But you don't know what the top autocross time will be. (Though that may not matter) I was tempted to sit down and look at the numbers, but decided it would not help me build a faster car.

And Since 13s at the drags are becoming common place, I had better stick to my strengths and build what I want to own when done. My tentative plans for $2011 are to build a car that is actually much slower than the car it is side-lining.... but prettier.

Oh, but bottom line is that you have to be strong in all 3 to do well. We came in ahead of much faster cars by simply avoiding a really bad score in any one catagory.

I had better stick to my strengths and build what I want to own when done.

+1...though I'm hoping to build something slightly faster, and much, much, uglier.

DILYSI Dave wrote: If anything scoring wise is to be tweaked, I'd vote concourse. As it sits, a very clean car can get beaten by a dirty, but very cool car. That's OK if the criteria is coolness, but if that's the case, don't call it a concourse. I love seeing hyper-detailed builds. I love seeing crazy E36 M3. I don't love seeing them trying to compete for the same set of points. Also, perhaps with 5 judges, it would be worthwhile to do a "drop the high and low and average the rest" system like they do in the olympics. Seeing the wide range of scores from 5 different people allegedly looking at the same car only adds to the "moving target" frustration of trying to build for the concourse.

It would be cool to show up with a car that wins the drags and the auto-x yet is ugly as sin. We could coin a new term as a result - rat Challengers!

dyintorace wrote: It would be cool to show up with a car that wins the drags and the auto-x yet is ugly as sin. We could coin a new term as a result - rat Challengers!

They call that the Crapcan class ;)

I agree with the Concourse having "cool" factored in.

Our 5.0 Miata certainly did not have a really clean body (especially looking at the Jeep or DirtE30). There were plenty of dings scratches etc. Hell the first time we washed it was with quick detail in the parking lot. The overall conversion (ie keeping it fuel injected and stockish looking) likely helped us.

It only makes sense that interesting cars will score better. When you go to a car show does the stockish mustangs, corvettes etc. get the attention or is the weird/cool/custom stuff?

dyintorace wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: If anything scoring wise is to be tweaked, I'd vote concourse. As it sits, a very clean car can get beaten by a dirty, but very cool car. That's OK if the criteria is coolness, but if that's the case, don't call it a concourse. I love seeing hyper-detailed builds. I love seeing crazy E36 M3. I don't love seeing them trying to compete for the same set of points. Also, perhaps with 5 judges, it would be worthwhile to do a "drop the high and low and average the rest" system like they do in the olympics. Seeing the wide range of scores from 5 different people allegedly looking at the same car only adds to the "moving target" frustration of trying to build for the concourse.

It would be cool to show up with a car that wins the drags and the auto-x yet is ugly as sin. We could coin a new term as a result - rat Challengers!

Back in '03 I beat the 10th place car(alfadriver I think) in both the autocross and the drag race, but placed 17th overall because of my sub-par concourse score. Despite the fact that I spent several hours the night before detailing it. At that point I decided FTC!

16vCorey wrote:

dyintorace wrote:

DILYSI Dave wrote: If anything scoring wise is to be tweaked, I'd vote concourse. As it sits, a very clean car can get beaten by a dirty, but very cool car. That's OK if the criteria is coolness, but if that's the case, don't call it a concourse. I love seeing hyper-detailed builds. I love seeing crazy E36 M3. I don't love seeing them trying to compete for the same set of points. Also, perhaps with 5 judges, it would be worthwhile to do a "drop the high and low and average the rest" system like they do in the olympics. Seeing the wide range of scores from 5 different people allegedly looking at the same car only adds to the "moving target" frustration of trying to build for the concourse.

It would be cool to show up with a car that wins the drags and the auto-x yet is ugly as sin. We could coin a new term as a result - rat Challengers!

Back in '03 I beat the 10th place car(alfadriver I think) in both the autocross and the drag race, but placed 17th overall because of my sub-par concourse score. Despite the fact that I spent several hours the night before detailing it. At that point I decided FTC!

Firmly blame that on the intake hose coming off under boost.... Twice. With hood dent.

I don't have a problem with the criteria for the concourse. As it's been pointed out here before, this event exists for editorial content for the magazine. I get that, and I think that is the right way to go. I want to see the interesting cars too! I can't get as excited about a super clean Honda as I can about an Isetta on steroids.

For what it's worth, I just went back and looked at the 2009 results. I finished 13th in a completely stock 99 Miata with just race rubber, a 75 hp shot of nitrous, and a removed passenger seat. The car was pretty clean but obviously mostly stock. It did OK in concourse, but being stock it moved me down 2 places behind cars with lower dynamic scores. That doesn't bother me a bit. But I am a little dissapointed, because I just realized that if I hadn't been knocked down 2 spots, I would have finished right behind Uranus!!!!

Well poo. Worked on my "free" Hemi and found it needs a new crank and one rod/piston. Both bearing halves were trying to occupy the same space inside the rod plus the crank is needing a turn. It is just cheaper to just get a new factory crank with new bearings inside the box.

Back to the drawing board.

As to the current discussion, I believe that the concours is a bit skewed to "weird" racing tin cans vs the something that could be duplicated in someone's garage and driven all over with SOME creature comforts. I never understood that and still don't. Plus the scoring is skewed to the autocross side, as you can crank out another .5 sec easier there then you can at the drags unless you stink at drag racing. You have to be tops in the drag portion if you are mediocre in the autocross to finish "decent" with average concours scores.

Brian

Ranger50 wrote: Plus the scoring is skewed to the autocross side, as you can crank out another .5 sec easier there then you can at the drags unless you stink at drag racing.

I disagree. I think once you have eliminated the low hanging fruit, it is equally hard to pry a 1/2 second out of an autox car as it is a drag car.

DILYSI Dave wrote:

Ranger50 wrote: Plus the scoring is skewed to the autocross side, as you can crank out another .5 sec easier there then you can at the drags unless you stink at drag racing.

I disagree. I think once you have eliminated the low hanging fruit, it is equally hard to pry a 1/2 second out of an autox car as it is a drag car.

What he said...1/2 second is a lot in either event.

The scoring is fine. Autox and Drag are weighted equally and there is no way you can't win with one or the other. Honestly, the way competition has been the last few years, it's going to be hard to get top 20 soon if you don't do well in both events. The Coucours is the concours....meaning, it's an event to generate contact for the magazine. Build what they'll want to write about in the magazine, make sure it's innovative, clean, well put together and you'll score well in the concours, especially if it's likely to perform.

That being said, I'll be back next year. Can't wait!

As I sit here thinking about plans for my first build I've come to the conclusion that I could care less about the scoring or where I place.

I just want to drink beer and talk about cars.

Marty! wrote: As I sit here thinking about plans for my first build I've come to the conclusion that I could care less about the scoring or where I place. I just want to drink beer and talk about cars.

PPssstt....you don't even have to build a car to do that. Just show up. (like me in 08)

I personnally like how the points are awarded. Everyone's car is running under the same scoring system. If you want to "win" the overall, it must do well in every category. I only recommend that folks remember what has been said many times before...

spin_out wrote: ......and build what I want to own when done. .......

This is our favorite event of the year. We see folks with a common interest. I learn something every year. I have friends all over the country that I can visit while traveling for work. I can go on and on. But as spin said, you really should want to own it when it is done. I really enjoy listening to someone who has that passionate fire about their effort. Those are the people who have shown me so many neat new tricks on how the make more out of less.

Our efforts have been centered on teaching the boys how the use their hands and minds, and to spend time together as a family. That is "real world" in our corner of it. I know that they will be able to at least feed themselves when they leave home, as they have become very capable young men. We talk about the event all year and work hard to perform as well as we can. Unfortunately '10 was our worst showing to date. Worst based on our measure of our effort versus outcome. But, at the end of the day we have what we want to own.

Marty! wrote: As I sit here thinking about plans for my first build I've come to the conclusion that I could care less about the scoring or where I place. I just want to drink beer and talk about cars.

agreed...and Im also really considering an out of the box idea...even if it doesnt compete that well, I want to really turn heads from an originality standpoint, and I think I may be on to something

wheels777 wrote: I personnally like how the points are awarded. Everyone's car is running under the same scoring system. If you want to "win" the overall, it must do well in every category. I only recommend that folks remember what has been said many times before...

spin_out wrote: ......and build what I want to own when done. .......

This is our favorite event of the year. We see folks with a common interest. I learn something every year. I have friends all over the country that I can visit while traveling for work. I can go on and on. But as spin said, you really should want to own it when it is done. I really enjoy listening to someone who has that passionate fire about their effort. Those are the people who have shown me so many neat new tricks on how the make more out of less. Our efforts have been centered on teaching the boys how the use their hands and minds, and to spend time together as a family. That is "real world" in our corner of it. I know that they will be able to at least feed themselves when they leave home, as they have become very capable young men. We talk about the event all year and work hard to perform as well as we can. Unfortunately '10 was our worst showing to date. Worst based on our measure of our effort versus outcome. But, at the end of the day we have what we want to own.

All very cool, but...

Keep your eye on the ball!