$2012 Challenge rules

Pat said: ditch all of the freebies

Who's putting "FREE" in the budget? I've always FMV'd stuff, down to the zipties.

Somebody with some $$$ should put together one of these to take home the auto-x gold:

Then, swap in a dually axle with 4 drag slicks and bring home the drag trophy too. Might as well run a ton of rubber if it's free and you got the coin!

Supercoupe wrote: alas another year missed by me, I have a wedding to attend. Unless someone would be interested in getting my car back up north, I could get a flight out Sat afternoon and still make the wedding...

sell it to a challenger while you're there!

poopshovel wrote:

Pat said: ditch all of the freebies

Who's putting "FREE" in the budget? I've always FMV'd stuff, down to the zipties.

I think he means brakes and safety stuff.

This is a game changer, but I think it is a good idea. When we were last there ($2004), we were on VERY marginal used tires at the a-x. Danny got out of the car after the last run and told us grip had gone away. Both rear tires had cords showing. Hunting down tires was a huge pain in the butt for us too, as there aren't a ton of a-x'ers or road racers in our area.

I still miss going to the Challenge each year and hope we can do it again someday when the kids are big enough to be active participants.

Erik

poopshovel wrote:

Pat said: ditch all of the freebies

Who's putting "FREE" in the budget? I've always FMV'd stuff, down to the zipties.

Poor choice of words...by free, i meant items that do not count towards budget. Roll bars, tires, brakes, scattershields, etc. The "safety" items that have no performance advantage....but you do need to have if the car is fast enough. Hard to argue its a $2k car when there is an extra $1k in tires, $500 in a roll bar, $150 in brakes and lines, $200 in a scattershield or sfi bellhousing, etc. might as well call it the $4k challenge and require everyone to run kuhmos!

I havent fmv'd zip ties, but i do include a slush fund of like $25 to cver misc crap found in the garage, like zip ties, used bolts, washers, etc.

This wide use of the word "free" is confusing me. If the rollcage is welded in, (as I plan to), it is not free. If I put brakes on the car, (other than what came factory on the car), they are not free. Etc. Y or N?

A rollbar can be welded in but not a rollcage as long as the roll bar does not act as a brace to the suspension. And yes to your second question.

Does anyone know if rollbar padding counts towards the budget or not?

I browsed the rules and I no longer see an award for ..... Worst Bribe. Say it isn't so.
We've come close to winning that one without trying.

We already bought 2 sets of used tires, and we were born cheap, so I don't see us getting new Kumhos for $2012. $2013 will be a different story, partly because that car won't have 13" rims.

spin_out wrote: I browsed the rules and I no longer see an award for ..... Worst Bribe. Say it isn't so. We've come close to winning that one without trying.

WHAT!?!

Something tells me that has something to do with the "brake bleeders" and "transmission catalogs" that caused that to change.

Derick Freese wrote: Something tells me that has something to do with the "brake bleeders" and "transmission catalogs" that caused that to change.

[smirk]

I'll weigh in on the Kuhmo rule... and say that I am hugely in favor of it. I do understand the complaints, and the concerns, specifically to those who cannot afford the tires. In my opinion (don't flame, it's just an opinion) the rule does a couple really nice things overall...

1. Allows me to compromise less on the areas of the car that I am actually building. I don't build tires, so I can't improve on what is available from retail.
2. Helps to level the playing field. If everyone runs v710s, then the cars are more comparable to each other. This creates a situation similar to the professional drivers.
3. Removes the burden of shopping. If you don't know someone with a cache of used race rubber, the odds of you finding an ideal tire set for your car are slim, finding them in the condition you would like are nil, at a price that is Challenge friendly... yea well. With this rule, you can get the best tire available, at the ideal size, for $0 to your budget. That has to make things better.
4. Allows you to test and sort the car if you choose. Because you can buy new tires at no budget impact. You don't have to worry with using up your tires if you want to run your car at your local drag strip, autocross for testing for fun. Again, provides the opportunity to put a better car out at the challenge.

I'm not rich, and not planning on buying a pallet of tires for testing. I will however buy a set of Kuhmos to take advantage of this rule. A set of tires should get me a couple events without degrading the performance of the tires.

IMO, this a good rule for the competition, and it is a great rule for my build.

I just thought of something that made me hate this less. The wheels I'll likely be running are a set of FD takeoffs. I happen to know that a popular wheel amongst the ms3 guys is the FD wheel. Seems that v710's could be dual use for me. Now to come up with an extra grand.....

I think i'm just going to change my car choice to something i can fit 345/35-18s under.

I got a sawzall and a grinder with a cutoff wheel. I bet we can get em under the mx6.

This is troubling. Why not just more thorough inspections? Sure seems like if you want to be competitive you have to buy brand new Kumhos.

I hope Kumho is paying well for this. It certainly changes the game.

unevolved wrote: This is troubling. Why not just more thorough inspections? Sure seems like if you want to be competitive you have to buy brand new Kumhos. I hope Kumho is paying well for this. It certainly changes the game.

Kumho makes out like a bandit.

You want to win? You buy our tires. Oh, and you're still running our stickers. You will advertise for the things you bought.

Too bad the size selection in the V710 and the XS sucks bad.

unevolved wrote: This is troubling. Why not just more thorough inspections? Sure seems like if you want to be competitive you have to buy brand new Kumhos. I hope Kumho is paying well for this. It certainly changes the game.

Who is going to do the inspections?

Remember, this is a way to give GRM something interesting to write about, not a national competition that means anything outside of the GRM world.

Between spending more time inspecting the books of documents more carfully and letting people buy sponsor tires for free- the choice seems pretty obvious.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I think i'm just going to change my car choice to something i can fit 345/35-18s under.

So a Javelin then? Won't even need to roll the wheel lips.

Javelin wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: I think i'm just going to change my car choice to something i can fit 345/35-18s under.

So a Javelin then? Won't even need to roll the wheel lips.

I don't think i could pick out a Javelin if i saw one by the side of the road.... don't think that's going to be on the agenda.

I think it's a good change. I've never been to a challenge though I did build a car for one before my 8 months pregnant wife talked me out of it.
One of the biggest challenges was tires. Even in the early years it was clear that good tire were important if you wanted to do well. I could get every part I needed to build my car easily on the open market, except for 'lightly used' take off autocross tires for a great deal like a few people happened to come across. You seemed to have to know a guy who was retiring a set of tires while they still had life in them instead of running them to cords like most penny pinching autocrossers. I also knew that even if I was to find one of these sweetheart deals, I'd still have to buy another set of tires for testing to preserve that tiny bit of rubber that was left on my 'competition' set of tires. Quite frankly, this makes me more likely to give the event another shot in the future. Pick up a car for a grand, get it mechanically sound, polish thing up, buy a set of tires and go play. For me, the money is easier to come up with that the super sweetheart tire deal. Time to hit Craigslist.

alfadriver wrote: Who is going to do the inspections? Remember, this is a way to give GRM something interesting to write about, not a national competition that means anything outside of the GRM world. Between spending more time inspecting the books of documents more carfully and letting people buy sponsor tires for free- the choice seems pretty obvious.

I guess it makes sense, it just seems to be something of an open statement that the rules are more like suggestions. If the organizers are saying they don't want to take the time to enforce the rules, I think that will just open the doors for more "cheater" cars if people know there's no inspection.

Who knows, maybe it'll be counteracted with more competitor-issued complaints. That can't help with the solidarity between teams, though.

I guess we'll just have to see how it plans out. I'm glad I'm not running A&M's team for this year, it won't be easy to fit a set of new tires in the little money the school gives us. If we don't get new tires, that just means we're not planning on being competitive, and since we're an engineering program, we can't justify it for "fun." We have to try our best or we lose funding. Kind of a catch-22 in a round-about way.

In reply to unevolved:

I totally see your point. But I've also seen Per on a Challenge weekend, and I note the tone in all of their posts these days- that's a very hard weekend for them. Even with the guest judges.

Is there potential ways to cheat easily- sure. But I also think that the guys running the show have been around the block enough to spot the real cheaters.

Considering the effort Motorsports Marketing goes through to put this event on, even with never selling one out, I'm kind of surprised that they don't make this a semi- annual event. This is a great way to keep the work managable, and get a lot of interesting stories to write about.

that, and the competitors are not afraid to post here the ones who are a pain. Most here have agreed that Andy won last years event, regardless of the final outcome.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

unevolved wrote: This is troubling. Why not just more thorough inspections? Sure seems like if you want to be competitive you have to buy brand new Kumhos. I hope Kumho is paying well for this. It certainly changes the game.

Kumho makes out like a bandit. You want to win? You buy our tires. Oh, and you're still running our stickers. You will advertise for the things you bought. Too bad the size selection in the V710 and the XS didn't suck bad.

Man, please don't start with that bull E36 M3. Kumho is a SPONSOR of the Challenge. "Thanks for helping put on a really cool event" is a much better attitude to have. Yes, Kumho, like GRM, and every other business that still has its doors open, is in the business of making money. Get over it.