$2013 rollbar question

I want to put an NHRA roll bar in my car for next year. I understand the weld in/bolt in rule 100%, but the construction of my car won't allow the 2 rear bars to be bolted in. The door bars and main hoop are no problem though. Can I weld in the 2 rear bars with no budget hit, or add $25 in tubing to my budget for those 2 bars? With the shape of the cage it won't help the car handle anyway. Here is a pic of what it will be. I'm open to whatever everyone thinks is appropriate, just need to know what I can do. I can't fit the entire $350 cage in the budget though.

Is the car going to be fast enough to require said roll cage......if yes, I believe it would then be classed as "free" and a safety item. If not .....I have no effin clue.

Any more details on why it can't be bolted? Can you weld in a plate with captive nuts you can bolt to? That way just that plate would go in the budget.

I like the way nocones thinks......work with this.

Can I expound on the thought of this thread?

Say you have a full frame vehicle, like a P71, 9C1, etc. You bolt the rollbar structure in to the floor, but then you run "outrigger" bars extending to the frame or other points from the reinforcement plate on the bottom. How is that looked upon?

The reason it can't be bolted in is there are frame rails where the plate would go on the underside of the floor. Half of the plate would be on a frame rail, the other half not. I don't think straddling the frame with the bolts is an option, but I'll look. I may be able to weld a plate to the floor with nuts and the bolt the cage to that plate. I'll look tonight

that would be the way to go.. a big enough plate will secure it nicely

I'm just a little concerned about NHRA tech. This car is used for other things aside from the $20xx challenges. I know that's my problem and nobody else's, just trying to find a solution. As the car sits this very second, it has sub 11.50's in it. I don't ever plan to see 9's even when it's challenge duties are over. That's just more money than I care to spend. So, the 8pt cage is plenty as long as NHRA doesn't care about a welded in plate with the cage bolted to it.

Ok. I re-read the rules and saw something. I want to post here and make sure everyone agrees how I'm reading this.

H) Roll bars and roll cages may be added. Roll cages must be bolted (not welded) into the automobile and contained within the passenger/driver compartment. Roll bars may be welded in. A roll cage has more than five attachment points (but no more than eight) to the body or frame. Roll bars and roll cages must be padded within 6 inches of the occupants’ heads with SFI-spec high-density padding. Helmets must be worn in cars with roll bars or roll cages. Any additional bars and attachment points added to the roll bar or roll cage, or extending the bar or cage outside of the passenger compartment to the suspension pickup points, will negate this allowance and make the entire cage count toward the budget.

The way I see it, if I leave out the passenger side door bar it is a 5pt rollbar and can be welded in.

In reply to PhilStubbs:

That's how I read it, too. (Granted, I'm no Challenge competitor, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once).

See if you ask a chassis shop the difference between a cage and bar is the forward halo and down bars make it a cage. Typically, everything is either a 6-8 pt BAR, the difference there is outrigger bars from the main hoop to the center of the car under the crossbar/harness bar. Nobody builds 5pts. If you were to show up with a 6pt welded in, I wouldn't complain. it is just another place where the rulebook doesn't meet reality.

Given that rule, I'd do a 6 point cage, weld in 5 of the feet, and the passenger side A Pillar one would be bolted. Until the challenge was over when I would weld it because bolted cages are dumb.

What I was thinking is to weld all 6 points in but put swing outs on the passenger bar. Then i could just remove it the chalkenge weekend. Swing out door bars are approved for faster times than this car will ever run

A door bar isn't a pickup point though.

DILYSI Dave wrote: A door bar isn't a pickup point though.

I think he is intending to run without he doorbar in place so while the 6th welded pickup and doorbar mount would be in place it would not be attached to the rest of the cage during the runs.

That said I would argue that since the doorbar bolts to both the mount and the bar it is as good as bolted in and the costs of the mount would be included in the build but the rest of the cage not. Furthermore my hope would be that the magazine and fellow competitors would look the otherway and allow him to run the 6 point bar if so equiped in the interest of safety. I would hate to see any kind of accident involving this competitor where the lack of passenger door bar could contribute at all to injuries or risk to the driver just because of the fact that his cage is a bit over built for the free allowance.

A 5pt rollbar is good for 10.00 in the 1/4 by NHRA rules. I have no problem leaving the passenger door bar out. If it is good enough for NHRA, it's good enough for me.

Removing door bars does not make this a 5 point cage. It simply makes it a 6 point cage with no door bars.

Cage and Bar are two different things. My pic at the top is a rollbar, your pic is a rollcage. People swap the two terms all the time, but a rollcage has to be certified and is a completely different thing.

Roll bar, with 8 pts of CONTACT:

Rollcage with 10 pts and no front crossbar :

In reply to Ranger50:

At the risk of threadjacking, the above pictures lead me to a question: I see that each of the diagrams show six pads/squares for attachment points, but then there are the two bars that sort of dangle down from the center section at an angle. The assumption that I've held has always been that those squares in the diagram indicate some sort of box or pad that has been welded or bolted into the floor pan/frame and then had the roll[bar|cage] welded to it. What's the deal with the other two? I'm completely ignorant on roll[bar|cage]s, so I guess I'm asking for a "learn me" moment.

The terms between SCCA and NHRA are different. NHRA calls this a 10 point cage because 10 bars go to the floor, SCCA calls this a 8 point cage because it attaches to the tub in 8 places.

wae wrote: In reply to Ranger50: At the risk of threadjacking, the above pictures lead me to a question: I see that each of the diagrams show six pads/squares for attachment points, but then there are the two bars that sort of dangle down from the center section at an angle. The assumption that I've held has always been that those squares in the diagram indicate some sort of box or pad that has been welded or bolted into the floor pan/frame and then had the roll[bar|cage] welded to it. What's the deal with the other two? I'm completely ignorant on roll[bar|cage]s, so I guess I'm asking for a "learn me" moment.

NHRA says those little "dangle" tubes are to support the main hoop in the event the side of the hoop makes contact with something. They attach to the transmission/driveshaft tunnel of the floor.

dinger wrote: NHRA says those little "dangle" tubes are to support the main hoop in the event the side of the hoop makes contact with something. They attach to the transmission/driveshaft tunnel of the floor.

Tech officals really like those downbars to be attached to something other then thin sheetmetal. My Mustang had those bars going to the tunnel only because I had started to winkle the trans tunnel where it meets the rear seat kickup. But when I had the bar done in CM, the guy doing it laid additional plate to weld to the tunnel for those bars.

I, myself, would rather weld those bars down to a subframe connector, for unibodies, or to the frame or an additional crossmember between the framerails.

The pic I posted comes right out of the NHRA rulebook. That is acceptable to run 10.00 as long as firewall/floor mods are kept to a certain minimum.

The roll bar I bought is an 8pt, it has a passenger door bar and those 2 tubes that go from the main hoop to the floor. I plan to leave all of that out till after the challenge. This is the last year this car will do the challenge, then it's going to do some serious drag racing. I'm planning to start another car in a month or two for 2014.