I appreciate the efforts, guys. Tommy had my suggestions (or perhaps dissertation) long before this thread was started.
There is at least 1 participant who put in a very big effort to do his cage the hard way in accordance with the old rules. Perhaps he deserves a few bonus concourse points for his effort? 
SVreX wrote: I appreciate the efforts, guys. Tommy had my suggestions (or perhaps dissertation) long before this thread was started. There is at least 1 participant who put in a very big effort to do his cage the hard way in accordance with the old rules. Perhaps he deserves a few bonus concourse points for his effort?
I'm sure we'll take care of Steve.
Like Margie said, we're not out to be dicks. We just want a cool event. In today's age of inexpensive welders, not allowing weld-in cages just seemed like a way to create busy work.
This is a great event lots of fun. If you don't like the rules stay home. This is the best event I go to. The best people to hang with. I have been to other events and have had trash thrown in my car,asked to borrow something told no, and don't even think of asking for help.
I will be there until I can't afford it. Or it doesn't happen.
Stan
No real threat to leaders 
Thanks for the vid John You can hear dollraves in the backround and that is turbo tommy first flag
More "you can't find that for Challenge money" fodder..... 2004 SRT-4 Neon 180,000miles $800. At a public car auction in Atlanta. Running, moving, looking OK except for the trashy ricer bumpers..Yes I should have bought it.....
clownkiller wrote: More "you can't find that for Challenge money" fodder..... 2004 SRT-4 Neon 180,000miles $800. At a public car auction in Atlanta. Running, moving, looking OK except for the trashy ricer bumpers..Yes I should have bought it.....
dude, how did you not buy it?
Bought a pimp 95 Miata for $900, didn't want to pile them to high at the house. It was two bumpers away from being a fine flip!
Long-time reader from Seattle here...am I correct in interpreting the rules that shipping/transportation costs to get the vehicle to the event are not counted in the budget? My wife is encouraging me to take part in the 2014 event (we've recently acquired sufficient garage space to accomodate a project), but to make it work for me I'd need to ship the car to G-ville for the event. If that has to be counted in the budget I'd be sunk.
Better yet, there should be a west coast event (I think this was attempted before without much success).
-chris
That's correct.
Shipping costs to get the parts to build the car are included. Transportation to and from the event is not.
If, by chance, the two items happen to take place at the same time, I would count it as transportation to the event and exclude it from my budget. 
SVreX wrote: That's correct. Shipping costs to get the parts to build the car are included. Transportation to and from the event is not. If, by chance, the two items happen to take place at the same time, I would count it as transportation to the event and exclude it from my budget.
Ooooooh... the assemble it in the parking lot loophole... nice.
SVreX wrote: That's correct. Shipping costs to get the parts to build the car are included. Transportation to and from the event is not. If, by chance, the two items happen to take place at the same time, I would count it as transportation to the event and exclude it from my budget.
Brain really turning now...
Put me down for helping parking lot build on wensday
SVreX wrote: That's correct. Shipping costs to get the parts to build the car are included. Transportation to and from the event is not. If, by chance, the two items happen to take place at the same time, I would count it as transportation to the event and exclude it from my budget.
I approve
ok I'm new here and looking to build a car that will serve multiple purposes. possibly including the 2013 challenge and just need a little clarification on a few rules.
so what defines the passenger compartment is that any open area in the cabin or is that limited to the seating area ? how many points can the cage be. and can the cage be gusseted to non suspension components (A pillars, B Pillars, and firewall) and still be allowed.
can i run stainless lines, i will still use rubber lines connecting to suspension components? but i live right on the Chesapeake bay in a low lying area and rust is a major issue and would like to replace with SS but don't want that cost to take up a huge chunk of my budget.
also I'm going to be adding a aftermarket proportioning valve and possibly a hydraulic e brake. if used i would add the value of those parts into my budget. but don't want that to make all of my brake work now considered part of my budget because of two non OE parts ?
couple more just general questions. do paint and prep materials have to be added to the budget ? does unibody frame pepairs have to be added to the budget if its rust damage that is being fixed to OE standards (just cuting out and weled in new metal, no structural or performance changes to a few ares in the floor pan and rear fenders)? and last and final question fuel lines. car has 20 year old plastic fuel lines that are brittle. can those be replaced with the same size hard fuel lines. as a safety item ?
johnt2k7 wrote: so what defines the passenger compartment is that any open area in the cabin or is that limited to the seating area ? how many points can the cage be. and can the cage be gusseted to non suspension components (A pillars, B Pillars, and firewall) and still be allowed.
that's a great question. i believe that in the evolution of the cage rule, this was specifically to address bars poking through the firewall or out of the cab to the rear axle area of a pickup.
the question of whether or not a cage counts against the budget is answered by whether or not it's a weld-in. welded to the vehicle = counts against the budget. you could split hairs on interpretation of attachment points, ie bolt the feet of your cage to the reinforcement plates, then weld gussets to the A-, B-, and C-pillars. ;-)
can i run stainless lines, i will still use rubber lines connecting to suspension components? but i live right on the Chesapeake bay in a low lying area and rust is a major issue and would like to replace with SS but don't want that cost to take up a huge chunk of my budget. also I'm going to be adding a aftermarket proportioning valve and possibly a hydraulic e brake. if used i would add the value of those parts into my budget. but don't want that to make all of my brake work now considered part of my budget because of two non OE parts ?
staiinless hard lines should be free because no performance advantage. braided stainless jounce hoses are a budget hit because they are a performance advantage (better pedal feel).
aftermarket prop valve is budget hit.
hydraulic e-brake probably free unless you plumb two and use them as cut brakes. ;-)
do paint and prep materials have to be added to the budget ? does unibody frame pepairs have to be added to the budget if its rust damage that is being fixed to OE standards (just cuting out and weled in new metal, no structural or performance changes to a few ares in the floor pan and rear fenders)? and last and final question fuel lines. car has 20 year old plastic fuel lines that are brittle. can those be replaced with the same size hard fuel lines. as a safety item ?
yes to paint, thinner, hardener, etc, that are ingredients of the paint as it is applied to the car.
no to sandpaper, cheese graters, etc, as they are tools
i would argue that rust repairs definitely count against the budget, because the presence of the rust undoubtedly made the purchase price lower than a rust-free example of the same model, just like crash repairs.
i would argue that fuel lines would be free because (1) no performance advantage and (2) safety. however, if you replace the fuel lines because your high-psi fuel pump is blowing the plastic ones apart, well, that's your problem and it would be a budget hit.
are there grey areas? YES. should you exploit them? YES!
Darren Vannoy Marketing Assistant at GRMWHQ said: In response to demand, weld in cages are now legal. The rules have been modified to reflect this. Weld away, ladies and gents! We are trying to keep the rules simple and as easy to follow as possible. The change was needed as we were getting a lot of questions and misunderstanding regarding the previous cage rule, as well as a handful of potential crapcan entries with weld in cages already installed. So we simplified them.
i thought this comment ment weld in cages where legal and didnt count towards a budget as long as they didnt extend outside of the passenger compartment to the suspension pickup points
my question about gussets was more about dimple dies gussets like the pic below. where the gusset would tie the entire a pillar or b pillar to the cage and the same where the bar runs across the firewall under the dash just below the windshield ?
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/events/2013challenge/rules/
The Man recently said: H) Roll bars and roll cages may be added. Roll cages must be contained within the passenger/driver compartment. Roll bars may be welded in. Roll bars and roll cages must be padded within 6 inches of the occupants’ heads with SFI-spec high-density padding. Helmets must be worn in cars with roll bars or roll cages. Any additional bars and attachment points added to the roll bar or roll cage, or extending the bar or cage outside of the passenger compartment to the suspension pickup points, will negate this allowance and make the entire cage count toward the budget. The safety items may only be used as intended for safety purposes and have no performance advantage.
To be allowed without counting towards the budget, your roll bar/cage must only use the minimum required attachment points. If you add additional ones, such as the a pillar or b pillar ones you are suggesting, these additional attachments would be for more than safety purposes and would then require the cage is included in the budget.
You are correct that weld in or bolt in no longer matters for budget reasons.
Bryce
To avoid the confusing nomenclature of how many points are allowed, I'll use a picture. Here's a picture with a cage...the flat steel parts are the minimum required attachment points:
Here is an example of a roll bar (in the background in light gray) and the parts that one would add to convert it to a a roll cage, with minimum attachment points shown with flat steel brackets:
Bryce
TaaaaaDart!
Who is the $2013 event Grand Poobah and how would I get a question to him/her about this kickass Dart build?
I think David is in charge.....not sure, though.
Gasoline wrote: TaaaaaDart! Who is the $2013 event Grand Poobah and how would I get a question to him/her about this kickass Dart build?
Send me an e-mail, darren@grassrootsmotorsports.com.
Thanks for answering the other questions gentleman, I see no incorrect information in the previous posts. I appreciate it. Any further questions, post here or send me an e-mail!
So if a friend paints a couple parts for me, how does this work in the budget? I'm buying the paint (and beer), he supplies the spraying skill (I'm doing the sanding/prepwork).
Are you paying for his labor? If so, include it in the budget. If not, he's a team member helping out. KISS
Bryce
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