$2014 Challenge Results

Yep, that's a very funny (and classy) reaction to our screwup. Far as I'm concerned, those guys are free at next year's Challenge, too--not only because it's the right thing to do, but because having people like that at an event can only make it better.

Thanks, everyone, for working with us as we sort through our issues. Guess we're not quite F1 yet (though I'm glad of that on a lot of levels).

Margie

A tip of the hat to the echo guys, but the experience is something that you will never forget.

So, I was wondering if the GRM staff could provide a little info on how the concours is judged. I understand it's subjective, but what exactly is it that the judges are looking for? I'm looking at the scores, and I was wondering how the Infiniti Q45 scored a whopping 4.5 points higher than the Merkur XR4Ti. Was that due to the "show" that team Infiniti put on? I'm not trying to knock those guys, they were awesome. I'm just trying to understand how a car that had been picked up a day (or few days?) before the event earned way more points than a car that had literally months of work done to it (auto-to-manual conversion, rear disc conversion, complete rewiring, 28yrs of grime removed, engine removed/installed, etc). Were the concourse scores modified after the event to correlate more with the dynamic or drag race scores? Was there manipulation of the results to better fit the goals of the magazine? Maybe I'm taking the event too seriously, but I have spent a lot of effort on this event over the last six years, and I'd like to know how I could achieve better results.

And if it wasn't obvious, I'm the other half of the Merkur team (the big bearded dude), Adam (sil80redtop) is my brother.

Below is the overall results list, sorted by concours score (team names were reduced to one word to simplify importing into open office):

In reply to MoD_Scotty:

The Merk was also purchased in non-running condition, with a jigsaw puzzle, cardboard box full of parts in the hatch. Perhaps we should've done a better job documenting and communicating the amount of work done.

12 concours I will take it oil pressure problems . Sunbeam video

Speaking as a non challenge participant:

Guys generally concours is about cleanliness. It is not really about how you took the car apart and put it together again...

the usual winners at the PCA Parade are guys that bought their cars new and had them saran wrapped, shipped home, unwrapped on a lift, polished everything they could find, then saran wrapped and have only ever unwrapped for the concours... Even those guys dont win always... Mostly b/c by mistake they removed a factory grease pen mark that the judges are looking for and other siliness like that.

Sil80redtop wrote: Perhaps we should've done a better job documenting and communicating the amount of work done.

I think you have answered your own question.

It's not about how clean the car is. It's about the story.

It was always about the story. The purpose of the event is to generate editorial content for the magazine.

Speaking as another team who could have done better in the concourse, it is COMPLETELY about how we documented and/or communicated. We could have told our story better.

The Infinity did well because they MADE it happen. They MADE us look and see them. They told their story well. Regretfully, I didn't look to hard at the Merkur. I didn't know how much you put into it (I wish I had. I feel bad now). But that is about your presentation, and telling your story. You probably didn't look too hard at my Miata either, because we didn't tell our story well. The Infinity presentation was completely over the top, both before the event and after.

I don't think the Infinity scoring is hard to understand. For presentation, they likely scored all 5 available points. For execution, they probably scored a 7 or 8, because their plan was very well executed. That means they scored about a 5 for innovation. It was clearly creative, but lacked a little in modifications and engineering.

It's not hard to understand.

1) I really liked your Merkur. B) We have taken a second place at the Concours, and how the judging works is still a mystery to me. My guess is that each judge puts down a score related to how they feel about the car's presentation that day. I think our Mustang placed pretty much where it should have, but I will say our car scored 2.25 points higher last year, and the same car was nicer this year. Judging is highly subjective. I was telling my teammate that I'd really like for it to count for only 10% of your score, versus the current 20%.

A novice award was mentioned and I think that is a Brilliant idea. It only makes sense that most of the awards will go to the top 3 cars, so additional awards are a very good idea. (Did the Under $1,000, and classic car awards disappear? They shouldn't). I'm not a fan of an award for every one, but for half of us would be nice. :-)

The other thing I took away from the town meeting is that the rules need to stay in place for a period of time. If there is going to be a change announce it 2 years before it goes into effect. A lot of these cars take more than 12 months to build.

Oh, and if you want to improve attendance, you have to cover the event in the magazine in more than one issue. I think "Great moments in Challenge history" was a great idea.

In reply to SVreX:

Thanks for noticing the Infiniti (though our intention was to make it hard not to notice.)

From the rules...

New for 2014 will be the parc expose. Cars will be parked in a centralized location, with hoods, trunks and doors opened for the judges and competitors to view. Entrants will have a maximum of 2 minutes to present their cars and share their story with the judges. Cars will be judged on innovation, execution and presentation, and scoring will be as such:
Innovation: 0-10 points
Execution: 0-10 points
Presentation: 0-5 points

“Innovation” covers things like design, engineering, creativity and modifications.
“Execution” covers things like cleanliness, workmanship and attention to detail.
“Presentation” covers things like originality, theme, showmanship, team spirit, moxie, chutzpah, backstory or anything else that falls under the heading of “je ne sais quoi.”

We planned to have Chutzpah in Spades!

Shtick aside, the Infiniti itself was a commanding presence. People came by the paddock all weekend and reveled at it.
If you heard and felt it run at full throttle, it was ultra impressive.

I had a couple of different pros drive it in the fun run segment. Each did the same things. They both tried to start the already running car (because it idled so quietly) and they both ended there run with some comment like, "that was more than I expected." More engine and more capability than expected.

The Infiniti was "bought right" rather than "built right" and we planned to highlight that buy in our look with the budget spelled out of the window sticker.
When judging day came and with the engine making noise, the decision was made to sell the car if possible. Our shtick of looking like a car lot actually became a car lot and red tag special in the front window now said, "Make Offer."

Year after year we all try to figure out precisely what the judges are looking for in the Concors, now Park Expose...everyone's opinion is certainly at least partially correct but sometimes it is hard to figure out exactly what they were thinking at that moment.

I am sure that they will continue to refine their efforts and communicate as clearly as possible what they are looking for and the criteria they use to judge us on. Also, new efforts by the staff to highlight previous entrants over the years will surely benefit us all by showing clearly what worked in the past and perhaps even why. Both of these approaches towards clarity will probably provide strong tools for us all to use as the event evolves. (Strong enough hint, GRM staff?)

I do not care to comment on particular cars because I am sure that I do not know the minds of the judges. It seems that they strongly react to a certain "je ne sais quoi" that captures their imagination. I will say that, like the event itself, the challenge car gestalt seems to be a moving target.

A specific thought that I had while walking around this year is that there seems to be more than a few entrants stuck in the traditional typical weekend car show mindset without any good reason. I am looking forward to further innovation by individual teams to inspire their fellow entrants and to push back, evolve the paradigm and demand to be noticed for their efforts.

May I suggest that judging subjectivity is almost the exact same thing as great editorial content?

It hard to put your finger on, but you know when you see a great story.

THAT'S the essence of the event.

As frustrating as subjectivity can be, it defines the editorial content.

Sometimes I think of it as, "What would I want on the cover that would make me want to buy the magazine, and what would make me want to read the article".

Somehow, it explains itself.

...so yes, tb, I agree that more innovation is needed.

I'll bet the turbo Dodge gang has always scored well on the Concourse, and probably never ask, " how are they scoring?"

They get it.

This is why the jeep always did well I'd bet... (great content, a JEEP autocrossing.)

wasnt then an article about an old truck used to autocross too? (with nascar parts on it etc...)

I sit here having sold a 1996 ford thunderbird v8 that I bought for 100 dollars, had a total of 900 bucks all told invested in and think. E36 M3 I could have done the challenge with that car...

The concours thing...

My car did absolutely horrendously in $2012. And i expected it. It's just not... an interesting car. It's a mostly stock car with some parts bolted to it. Nothing crazy. It's red, and it has stickers.

What WAS really funny though, was that one of the judges (and i'm pretty sure i know who) gave it really high marks, higher than he gave dansxr2's beautiful MX3, that has the same motor my car does swapped into it, complete with full MX6 brakes and suspension setup. I wasn't complaining, but i couldn't see how on earth anyone thought my car was better from a show/concours perspective.

But if you go into it knowing that getting the attention is half the battle, and the other half is subjective... then there's not much in terms of surprises.

Is the car interesting/could you maybe see a mag article about it? Yes? Enjoy your high concours score.

Yep, that's where I failed. Poor presentation of the car. I didn't think ahead about pointing out the little stuff that adds up and didn't put enough emphasis on the improvements over last year. Live and learn right? It was an expensive lesson that cost me enough to lose a position in the overall standings. Trying to make every look "factory" despite being modded is a cool concept, but easy to miss if you don't point it out to the judges!

It's all about the story and presentation...

We were still painting the fiero not buffing and waxing like everyone else and we finished 7th in concours. In past years I have finished last, second to last and finally last year in the middle.

Concourse has always been a sore subject and likely always will be due to it's subjective nature. Add lots of armorall smile big and tell a story. It helps to have a car or build that the judges find interesting it also helps to be a bit of a narcissist or at least entertaining. You have to tell them things that you might assume they already know because they are looking at every car and might well miss that seemingly obvious bit that might make your car a standout. If they remember your presentation there is a better chance they remember your car.

I've wondered if it's good or bad to be judged early or late. Late could mean they are tired, early could mean they don't want to give perfect 25s to the first car they see. Would the Honda have gotten a perfect score if it were first? Possibly not. (That is not a comment on the car, I have a signed poster hanging on my bedroom wall.)

Like I mentioned, Lessening the weight of the concourse would lessen the impact of the whim based element. Our highest scoring concourse had zero presentation, we simply answered direct questions. I'm a car guy who likes to be alone in my garage, don't ask me to put on a show. Going fast should be the proof of the car's worth.

Maybe have concours be worth one point.

Is the car a major E36 M3box?

Yes = 0 points
No = 1 point

thanks to all the replies, except for the awesome show the Q45 guys did we did the same thing as them, put tires on a stock car. granted the Q45 is cleaner and faster but I also traded mine for a bicycle. we came in dead last in the concours which is ok I wasnt expecting anything more but how we ended up with that giant check i have no idea lol. I had a blast throwing that poor echo around, i was surprised that it was faster than the fiat 500 abarth. Cant wait for next year, we have some great ideas.

Let's face it guys: the Concours/Park Expose is everyone's least favorite part of the Challenge. The people at GRM have been trying to find a way to make it more appealing for a while now. This latest attempt is probably the best effort so far, but it's still undoubtedly the low point of the event. I give props to the teams that tried to spice things up a bit just for the pure entertainment value.

While I'm disappointed with our team's results, I don't think we sold a compelling story for either car. We were cleaning and polishing both cars (the 1997 BMW 318ti and the yellow AMC) for the better part of the weekend, and we didn't roll them under the pavilion until the last minute. Our cars didn't seem to make an impact on the judges at all.

Speaking for myself: I was tired, and was making the rounds visiting other cars when the judges stopped by. Since we got in there late, and there's a small window to convince them that what you brought is worthy of their interest compared to everything else they already saw, we missed on telling them a lot of the more compelling details about the cars. In other words, we didn't say enough for them to give a E36 M3, and that's on us.

For example, the BMW that was driven from MA to the event (and back) after rescuing it from a neighborhood full of free roaming goats, chickens and horses after sitting 2+ years, and it barely ran and didn't want to move. It was purchased a mere month before!

The AMC came right from a trailer park after sitting for 15 years and we brought it back to life doing things it NEVER intended to do. And the heart of the build took just over a month of non-stop wrenching. It went on the trailer non-running (or shifting) and as the racing went on, the car started to "remember" that it had 3 forward gears as well as cornering so hard we were ripping off chunks of tire!

Speaking of the judges...

My team and I had a discussion internally on ways to make the Challenge better going forward. One of them was to randomly select the judges from the Challenge entrants themselves. This keeps it fresh every year, and also increases interactivity and participation from contestants. Think of it as the Park Expose version of working the Autocross course.

Why don't we make it even simpler.

Part of your duties as a competitor is to mingle and look at each car and talk to the other competitors.

You get a sheet with each entrant upon arrival to the hotel on Wednesday/Thursday/Whenever. Next to each entrant, you circle a score on a 0-10 scale as to how much you like it/find it interesting/like the color/think the competitor has a huge hangover and deserves a gift/whatever. You can score cars at your leisure up until say.... a cutoff time on Saturday.

Your car's concours score is the average of all scores from all other competitors. Big sample size, and worst case scenario, everyone scores a perfect 10.

All the magazine dudes/dudettes have to do is walk around and make a list of cars they want to feature.

In reply to Swank Force One:

I like this too. Either way, it takes the heat off the staff.

For a yellow and brown AMC Sprit it scored fairly well, lol. I think the judges saw it as a cool but unfinished project. I’m glad to see the concourse geared more towards what’s makes vehicles interesting then just having them shiny. Not sure why the 318ti did so poorly. We'll just need to tweak our presentation in a future. Just wish I brought before pictures with me.

Aug 23rd

Oct 23rd