$2014 Challenge

Personally, the location is part of the issue with attendance. I know west coast teams have attended in the past, but that requires a much higher level of dedication than many can put forth for essentially an AutoX, a Drag race and a Car show.

I don't believe I'm alone in this same predicament.

I know that you tried to get a West Coast event put together and that was an absolute failure. I desperately tried to make it to that event, but just ran out of time and money (lost my job briefly) and had planned on going the following year. Obviously that never happened.

At some point you'll run out of people willing to make the drive to Florida and will need to follow the SCCA's lead and move the event to a more central location and/or add more events. Having a stable ruleset and a stable time period will help improve build and planning efforts.

David S. Wallens wrote: You know, we did offer a Caveman class for a little while: no power tools, no fab, etc. I think we had like 2 or 3 people enter it. People talked about it, but few actually took us up on it. So we dropped it. By the way, I found the rules from the original $1500 Challenge from 1999: 245 words total.

I think the caveman class was a little too restrictive in the wrong way. You could still build an unstreetable race machine under those rules, which I think limits entries more than trying to create a class for someone without a power drill.

Edit: I have faith in y'all doing a decent job with the rules. I think the question you have to ask yourself is what content do you want in the magazine? That should guide the rule making to some extent.

Oh yeah, to expand on my idea for a "street" class. You could ban roll bars/cages in a class like that, which could lead to competitors self-limiting their power output.

David S. Wallens wrote: You know, we did offer a Caveman class for a little while: no power tools, no fab, etc. I think we had like 2 or 3 people enter it. People talked about it, but few actually took us up on it. So we dropped it.

Crap . . . I thought that was still around. I can mark that one off.

eastsidemav wrote:

David S. Wallens wrote: You know, we did offer a Caveman class for a little while: no power tools, no fab, etc. I think we had like 2 or 3 people enter it. People talked about it, but few actually took us up on it. So we dropped it. By the way, I found the rules from the original $1500 Challenge from 1999: 245 words total.

I think the caveman class was a little too restrictive in the wrong way. You could still build an unstreetable race machine under those rules, which I think limits entries more than trying to create a class for someone without a power drill. Edit: I have faith in y'all doing a decent job with the rules. I think the question you have to ask yourself is what content do you want in the magazine? That should guide the rule making to some extent. Oh yeah, to expand on my idea for a "street" class. You could ban roll bars/cages in a class like that, which could lead to competitors self-limiting their power output.

RE: Caveman class

Agreed. To me, it became the "What can I buy off Ebay/make/model forums/CL" class with the limits on fab. I can build a V8 Ranger without fabbing a thing with power tools. S10's too and Dakota's, if I start with a V6 model. I just have to have an open pocketbook. To me "caveman" equals what I have here: one electrical outlet, it's really an extension cord run out of a window from an inside outlet, for power, HF electric cutoff tool, Sawsall, drill, and a stand grinder out in my shed I run 100' of extension cord to power. I don't have a garage to build out from, it is only the outside or maybe if I am lucky, I can use a few feet of the carport.

RE: street class

Was there ever best DD candidate? Of course, it SHOULDN'T break during the event, but E36 M3 happens.....

icaneat50eggs wrote: You are probably going to laugh, but is there any chance at doing this at different locations? You might not have noticed, but Florida is kind of stuck way off in a corner. For a good funk of the country it could cost more to travel to the challenge the. Build the challenge car. If you wan new blood/ideas/content moving it around would help

Don't move it now. I'm just about to move to Florida and might actually be able to spectate after all these years of telling myself I would come down and see all the action . Maybe seeing everything up close will actually give me the kick in the pants I need to start building a challenger. I've still got my issue from '00 when read about it for the first time. I think that issue was actually the first issue I ever picked up off the news stand and then I was hooked.

angrycorvair's proposed challenge rules (draft):

1. if it's on the car, it's in the budget. no freebies!
2. recoup and price limit rules same as current.
3. 10% budget discount on any component made by or sold through any event sponsor (Kumho tires (new or used), eBay, etc)
4. 10% budget discount on products
5. there will be a 15-minute parade-lapping drive around the road course. any car that can not complete this may run as exhibition only IF it passes all other tech and budget requirements.
6. if it passes "tech", it competes.

in my world, "tech" is staffed by competent and knowledgeable challenge competitors who will try to catch all the E36 M3 that the Gainesville NHRA guys miss, for example:

• brake pedal stomp test
• ball joint / tie rod / control arm wiggle tests with the wheels off the ground
• lug nut torque check before each dynamic event

Well, If you are going to give the rules a "once over", I'd say less rules equals more creativity.
More creativity makes for a more interesting article.
Wait until you see my valve cover racers. Those rules basically limit weight, width, wheelbase, and wheels..... That's it. Everything else is only limited by your imagination.

I'll add a post scriptum. I like Miatas, E30s, and Civics, but we brought a V-8 powered TR7 because those other cars.... let's say that can "pollute"... the challenge. But they are the easiest to build. We came in 4th behind a Jeep, K-car, and MR2. Look at that, no Civics, E30s or Miatas in the top 4. How interesting.

AngryCorvair wrote: angrycorvair's proposed challenge rules (draft): 1. if it's on the car, it's in the budget. no freebies! 2. recoup and price limit rules same as current. 3. 10% budget discount on any component made by *or* sold through any event sponsor (Kumho tires (new or used), eBay, etc) 4. 10% budget discount on products 5. there will be a 15-minute parade-lapping drive around the road course. any car that can not complete this may run as exhibition only *IF* it passes all other tech and budget requirements. 6. if it passes "tech", it competes. in my world, "tech" is staffed by competent and knowledgeable challenge competitors who will try to catch all the E36 M3 that the Gainesville NHRA guys miss, for example: - brake pedal stomp test - ball joint / tie rod / control arm wiggle tests with the wheels off the ground - lug nut torque check *before* each dynamic event

Strike_Zero wrote: If it wasn't for Curmudgeon's Trazada/Abomination, I would have only been reading about it rather than trying to participate.

(hangs head) I'm sorry I got you mixed up in all this.

NOT.

A lot of folks seem to be dwelling on adding specific classes to cover anything under the sun that shows up. I think this is missing the point a bit.

The real joy of the Challenge is meeting the people, seeing the cars, and taking the entire event in. Don't think for a minute that you won't have a good time if you don't win some token trophy. You will have a blast regardless of what you win, or don't win. It's about the people and the cars, the camaraderie and the commitment. It isn't about some wooden plaque, or trophy.

Build the best car you can, come compete, and have a blast partying with the other competitors. ( and GRM staff) If you win an award.....great. If you don't--- who cares, you'll still have a blast!

In reply to Joe Gearin:

I mostly agree with you, Joe. The issue is how to draw people in who haven't been able to experience it yet, and thats where you get increased attendance from...

I like angry's thoughts. I have been to 5 challenges 3 as a participant and 2 to watch. Had fun at all of them, probably more just watching as I wasn't worried about the little things to make the car as good as it could be. I will echo with what others have already stated the people is what brings you back year after year.

I'm really only a proponent of Adding classes if it's the only way the Challenge would get opened up to more "race" and less "street" cars.

I like Angry's rules assuming it is proposing removal of the "production based, No kit cars" rules. I Would only add that All cars must run on DOT approved tires for autox. The only reason I propose this is becasue the SCCA has identified the need to seriously up the safety requirements for cars on NON-DOT tires and we just really don't want to add all that verbage to the challenge rules.

AngryCorvair wrote: angrycorvair's proposed challenge rules (draft): 1. if it's on the car, it's in the budget. no freebies! 2. recoup and price limit rules same as current. 3. 10% budget discount on any component made by *or* sold through any event sponsor (Kumho tires (new or used), eBay, etc) 4. 10% budget discount on products 5. there will be a 15-minute parade-lapping drive around the road course. any car that can not complete this may run as exhibition only *IF* it passes all other tech and budget requirements. 6. if it passes "tech", it competes. in my world, "tech" is staffed by competent and knowledgeable challenge competitors who will try to catch all the E36 M3 that the Gainesville NHRA guys miss, for example: - brake pedal stomp test - ball joint / tie rod / control arm wiggle tests with the wheels off the ground - lug nut torque check *before* each dynamic event

This. Simpler is better and more interesting to see the creativity in getting the most out of very little through engineering, negotiating, and determination.

And...

Joe Gearin said: A lot of folks seem to be dwelling on adding specific classes to cover anything under the sun that shows up. I think this is missing the point a bit... Build the best car you can, come compete, and have a blast partying with the other competitors

This too.

It's what attracted me to this event. I wanted to see how my skills stacked up against the BEST. Guys like Denny Crabill, Andy Nelson, Hong Norr, Mini Me. So far I've come up short despite a great deal of effort. Do I still have fun every time I go? Yup. Do I want to see the rules get impossibly complicated with different classes and a trophy for everyone that shows up? Nope.

what happened to the failed west coast event?

I don't know what all goes into running one of these, but if it's logistical support that right now is being handled by the staff, that can be done somewhere else by someone else.

Lots bigger events are organized by local folks who have other jobs, I'm sure with the propper assistance this one could to. get a dedicated group out west, or in the middle of the country that really want to see this but know they can't make it to Florida to set it up.

That would be a very grassroots way of approaching this, if you're into that type of thing.

Angrymike's proposed rules amendments, in the interest of attracting more entrants, increasing interest in the event, making it more accessible, and, most importantly, selling more magazines:

Follow the LeChump model for prizes. I think everyone who's done the thing would agree that the REAL winner is the Challenger's Choice recipient, as well as the Spirit of the Event award. Therefore:

1. Make Challenger's Choice the "BIG PRIZE" 4 - tires, $500 in ebay bucks, or hell, $1000 cash as worked into the entry fee. Overall still gets a killer prize; again, set of tires, cash, whatever. But Challenger's Choice is the big payday. I may be way off here, but I would assume the guys that attend the Challenge are a good cross-section of the people who buy your magazine. Some are into the crazy fabrication. Some (like me) are not anywhere near as smart or talented as Andy Nelson, and love seeing cheap, easy power tricks and cool themes. Let the competitors decide what's interesting and cool, as they are your readers.

2. ELIMINATE THE ONLY SUBJECTIVE PORTION; THE CONCOURS. This was, and still is the most mind-boggling thing as a first time Challenger, as a READER, AND as a long time Challenger; ordering copies of past Challenge mags, and going through the results saying "WHAT THE berkeley ARE THEY LOOKING FOR???"

When we showed up with the A-hole car, we thought maybe the theme would score us some concours points. Nope. (Note to other challengers, do not get drunk and start harassing the staff asking them "WHAT THE berkeley ARE YOU LOOKING FOR???") My eternal humble apologies. I was "that guy" in 04.

When we did finally bring a good looking car, we started that build less than 2 months before the Challenge, halfway through another build, because the Civic came up for free in a "get it the berkeley out today" frenzy.

The EXHAUSTING amount of detail work didn't leave any time for fabrication. As such, we were stuck buying off the shelf stuff, which we then caught E36 M3 for from both the judges and other competitors, as we had too many "bolt-ons." Trust me. Given the time, we would've done a lot more ourselves and not taken $500 worth of budget-hit for a E36 M3ty ebay header, plumbing, and intercooler.

AT_EVERY_CHALLENGE, your entrants are going around to each other and saying "We got berkeleyed on the concours. What the berkeley are we doing wrong?" I was asked this a couple years ago and had to say "We've been doing this for a while now, and I still have no berkeleying clue."

Apparently we pissed in Steven Cole Smith's cheerios at some point, as he's always given us scores WAY below the other two judges. It's frustrating to put that much work into something, and then get berkeleyed because of what I must assume is some kind of personal vendetta.

Hell. Two separate years, only 2 of the 3 judges LOOKED AT THE berkeleyING CAR.

THEN to have Tim (whom I love, and respect, and appreciate everything he's done for us - for real,) say that the cars last year were much more "Real word" and not painted and polished works of art, is a real kick in the teeth, as if we really WANTED to spend countless hours making a turd look nicer than anything any of us daily-drive.

If the intent of the concours is to have good looking cars for the magazine, most guys will make their E36 M3 look good enough to photograph regardless. Others will bring "Rats," which guys like me are more interested in looking at and reading about anyway. Put it this way: AT LEAST a few people will bring good looking cars - enough that you'll have something to put on the cover. Personally, I think the Isetta, the Rat Ghia, Condor's Rat BMW, et al, are the best looking cars that have ever showed up. I'd be much more likely to pick up the mag in the grocery store if one of those cars was on the cover than if I saw something painted and polished and pretty.

Whew. Rant over. The concours berkeleying sucks. Everyone hates it. IT STOPS SOME PEOPLE FROM ENTERING THE EVENT, AND OTHERS FROM COMING BACK. Get rid of it.

NOW, if the intent of the Concours is to judge creativity and engineering, then "Challenger's Choice" taking the top prize remedies this.

If the intent is to award "BullE36 M3 Points," then read on.

3. IF there is going to be a subjective scoring portion, make it BS judging. Appease the "I'm not winning so everyone else must be cheating" whiners, and do BS inspection. Deduct points in the dynamic scoring. Easy peasy. Have the cars parked somewhere (downtown Gville is a pretty berkeleying cool place) and have the judges go car to car asking questions about specific items. Have the competitors point to pics, receipts, tell tall tales, etc. I can go either way on this one, but maybe Readers would find the whole thing more believable. I dunno.

4. NO WHINING It's really that simple! Upset that you were too berkeleying lazy to get your ass out of bed and to the track before it got rained out? TFB. Tell your psychiatrist. Don't pitch a fit and get the legitimate winner who was there when the gates opened kicked off the podium. You know who you are. I don't know who you are, or I'd call you out directly.

That's all I got. Make the tech inspections a LITTLE more intensive so no one gets hurt.

I don't mind the tire rule. It stops the berkeleying whining that guys like us who look at craigslist and solo message boards EVERY berkeleyING DAY looking for cheap E36 M3 are cheating. I'm still going to buy scrubbed tires at 1/2 price or less. You guys with deep pockets do whatever the berkeley you want. Bet my car's lighter and dances around the cones better.

STOP with the silly "This class and that class" bullE36 M3. The people who get all "I can't do it" can kiss my ass. None of us have shops. None of us are mechanics. I have air but use hand tools 99% of the time anyway. Every car we've ever built has been 90% disassembled and re-assembled outdoors. Cry me a berkeleying river. You're not not Andy Nelson because you lack fancy tools. You're not Andy Nelson because there's only one Andy Nelson. Stop whining, man up, adapt and overcome.

Last note: If there's going to be a concours, make it suck less. This sitting in the baking sun for 4 hours to have only 2 of 3 judges look at the car is berkeleying retarded. No microphones. No presentations. Do it LeMons downtown Kershaw style. Park the cars in Gville. We dudes & chicks will support the local bars while one sucker gets left to sit with the car and go over it with the judges.

LAST LAST NOTE: If you haven't been to the Challenge, please come. It's an awesome group of talented people. Everyone is friendly. Everyone wants to tell you about their car, and show you how they did it so cheaply. If you're reading the magazine going "These guys are all billionaire mechanics with million dollar shops," you're wrong. 99% of us are middle class regular dudes with regular jobs and families. I'll buy the beer!!! Just clean up after yourself when you're done, you filthy pigs.

Fwiw... Tim scored my car pretty high in the concours. my guess is that like you, he likes the rats.

Swank Force One wrote: Fwiw... Tim scored my car pretty high in the concours. my guess is that like you, he likes the rats.

Oh wow! You won the concours!?

I like where the poop is flowing.

In reply to poopshovel:

AMEN! From the bleachers I haven't ever figured out what the judges want for "Concours" either. Stripped interiors is crap. Putting forth effort to clean up a pig sty and get no appreciation for it is crap. This is from the photos published and looking at the scores. Is there an agreeable competitor vehicle out there to be the "gold standard"? Probably not, but worth a shot.

FWIW, I prefer to have interiors. I always have raced in classes that require interiors. So, stripped interiors is a cop out and makes me pass otherwise awesome vehicles over.

In reply to poopshovel:

dang dude, anything on your mind?

and FWIW, my draft rules above were not revisions to the existing rule set. they are what i think is a complete rule set on their own. no classes, no street equipment requirement, no DOT tire requirement -- although i think that's a good idea, i just hadn't thought of it because i don't SCCA.

also, i apologize for leaving #4 in there as a fragment. i combined the original idea with #3 and forgot to delete #4.

garage-built "FSAE" car with no restrictor? berkeley Yeah!
swing-axle ACVW? berkeley Yeah!
LT1 F-body with deep gears and a ton of nitrous? berkeley Yeah!
Rolls Royce Lemons racer? Super Duper berkeley Yeah!

AngryCorvair wrote: In reply to poopshovel: dang dude, anything on your mind? and FWIW, my draft rules above were not revisions to the existing rule set. they are what i think is a complete rule set on their own. no classes, no street equipment requirement, no DOT tire requirement -- although i think that's a good idea, i just hadn't thought of it because i don't SCCA. also, i apologize for leaving #4 in there as a fragment. i combined the original idea with #3 and forgot to delete #4. garage-built "FSAE" car with no restrictor? berkeley Yeah! swing-axle ACVW? berkeley Yeah! LT1 F-body with deep gears and a ton of nitrous? berkeley Yeah! Rolls Royce Lemons racer? Super Duper berkeley Yeah!

I like your rules too, honey boo-boo.

poopshovel wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Fwiw... Tim scored my car pretty high in the concours. my guess is that like you, he likes the rats.

Oh wow! You won the concours!?

LOL!!!

berkeley no i didn't! I was like.... 6th from last in the concours or something. Like you, i'm not real sure what they were looking for. But Tim DID score me higher than Dan's absolutely-berkeleying-gorgeous MX3, which also made no sense to me.

I would have scored myself midpack, not damn near last, and certainly not above the MX3 under ANY circumstances.

I view the concours as a necessary evil. Its only purpose is to force me to wash the car once a year. (More than i wash any of my other cars.)

I view the concours as a necessary evil. Its only purpose is to force me to wash the car once a year. (More than i wash any of my other cars.)

I dig it. And I'd say there needs to be a "Cars must be clean and presentable" rule. But there doesn't. Not all the cars SHOULD look all pretty IMO. Some guys will bring good looking cars anyway. I'll continue to do stuff that I find eye-catching and funny, because I want a big picture of my car in a magazine, in an absolutely futile, useless attempt to convince my wife/in-laws/customers/random strangers in the post office parking lot how COOL I am!

poopshovel wrote: Last note: If there's going to be a concours, make it suck less. This sitting in the baking sun for 4 hours to have only 2 of 3 judges look at the car is berkeleying retarded. No microphones. No presentations. Do it LeMons downtown Kershaw style. Park the cars in Gville. We dudes & chicks will support the local bars while one sucker gets left to sit with the car and go over it with the judges.

Just a thought, if you're downtown with the cars why not get random people to vote on them. Put all the cars on a ballot sheet, pass them out and tally them up at the end of the night, or if it's too late, the next day.