2014 Rallycross National Championship in 5-ish days. Roll call!

captdownshift wrote: In reply to mazdeuce: I honestly feel that most concerns regarding rolls (which are normally "soft" rolls when at a rallycross) are due in part to having a tight course design that mirrors a traditional autocross course opposed to attempting to simulate a lower speed stage rally course. Trying to strike a balance that allows a course to be free and flowing, allowing several different lines to work, while still managing to keep speeds down enough that it isn't a 70mph romp is the challenge and key. Making it too constricted with overly tight slaloms and box turns is a recipe for low speed rolls. I'm not saying, or even suggesting that it was the case at the event but rather just making a general statement regarding to course design in prevention regardless of surface condition.

I totally agree with you here. In WDCR we run courses that are meant to simulate stage rally, definitely NOT autocross courses. Some people who see my vids say "well you guys just have a bunch of offsets and slaloms and not enough tight turns," but everyone who runs our courses loves them....high-speed, flowing, fun. I love our setups. If I wanted to do autocross, I'd do autocross. Even when we get rutted turns, I've never seen any car even come close to rolling, or even getting on two wheels that I can ever remember. I think WDCR has only ever had one car roll, and it was 5-6 years ago and apparently a driver mistake, not a course problem.

The GLDiv National challenge was a nice blend of a rally-feeling course with a few quick technical elements more like an autocross, IMO. I think everyone really liked those courses.

mazdeuce wrote: One last (probably not the last) remark about the course/facility. Runs were from 51 seconds to the mid 60's. If the courses were designed to be more open and reduce the tight corners they would be even shorter. And you would still have to put all three courses on the same piece of land. Aside from soil conditions, this brings serious question on whether this site is appropriate for the National Championship.

Curious.....we run huge, high-speed courses that still are usually 70-90 seconds long with 3-4 cars on course at once. Granted we don't lay all three out at the same time (rather, changing them between days for 2-day events). I didn't realize the nationals venue was so (comparitively) small, or so it seems. There are certainly flaws to our venue, but one would think that out in th e open midwest it would be easier to find giant venues than it is here fairly close to major population centers.

Damn I miss summit point. Three large courses and room for more......

It was a little frustrating being confined to such a small spot right next to hundreds of acres of corn. Give me 45 minutes and a combine and we could have had some fun.
And I'd be happy as a clam is they ran nationals at your venue. I'd drive for that. I'll have to think seriously if I will again for the current venue.

moparman76_69 wrote: Seeing these threads makes me want to build a car for this. Then the sad realization that I'm in a RallyX black hole comes up.

Um, Fort Wayne region? The Dirty Wayners?

Badlands on the other side of the state?

mazdeuce wrote: I made it back home in time to send my wife off to work and drive the kids to school which is the greatest success of the weekend. As the rest of you finish your drives, come check in.

Just got home after driving wae's Neon for, oh, sixteen hours or so. That means I spent more time in it this weekend than he did, including all the time he spent waiting in grid for the latest SNAFU to be mulled over.

A few thoughts:

• Rally tires are LOUD.
• Rally tires are FRICKIN' LOUD.
• It still got 36mpg on the first tank.
• It then got 32-33mpg on the other tanks.
• The sound of a turbo spooling when you roll into the throttle is FRICKIN' COOL. (So get rid of that BOV now Bill so we can get some proper rallycar turbo chatter!)
• If you thought Neons had headroom before, wait 'til you hull one out!

Non DRT-4 specific thoughts: Earplugs or earmuffs should not only be legal, they might probably should be mandatory. Driving to Omaha in the penalty box the long way 'round to avoid tolls, but WITH earplugs in, I felt in really good shape when I got to the cabin. Same for the drive home in wae's car while wearing earmuffs (out of plugs). No head-hammered-flat sensation, no extreme fatigue, cool and ALERT the whole trip, and alert drivers are safe drivers.

mazdeuce wrote: but there was nothing about either corner that indicated that they were a hazard prior to either incident.

I disagree.

It was a downhill off camber corner, going from a left bend on the top of the rise to a sharp right corner at the bottom of the hill. In soft ground.

Quite frankly, I am pleased that ONLY one car rolled in that corner. It scared the crap out of me, both as a corner worker and a driver.

mazdeuce wrote: It was a little frustrating being confined to such a small spot right next to hundreds of acres of corn. Give me 45 minutes and a combine and we could have had some fun. And I'd be happy as a clam is they ran nationals at your venue. I'd drive for that. I'll have to think seriously if I will again for the current venue.

NEDivs weren't particularly well-attended this year since SCCA didn't bother advertising them at all until the last second, was way late in selecting the venue, and they happened right after GLDivs and right before nationals (for both rallycross and solo) so nobody had travel budget to go to them. Hell, NEDivs were only a 3-4 hour drive for people like Evan and Pete and the other Ohio people, and none of you guys showed up other than Bob Poling and the lone SR Miata (IIRC). So SCCA will probably see the turnout (like 40 cars) and figure it's not a good venue or can't handle nationals, even though from all accounts it went off without a hitch, courses were great, and.....no cars rolled over.

SCCA, Want to grow the sport? have three "major" regional events (East, West, Central) and forget about a single national championship that largely draws only from the center of the country (look at the entry list this year....1-2 cars from the entire east coast?). This will get a lot more competitors to events, especially if they're treated as national championships and not just glorified "local" events like the Divisionals are regarded as.

ex: nobody cares who won the GLDiv challenge, or will remember (except those who were there). But now "Evan" is known to all rallycrossers nationwide .

mazdeuce wrote: I have a huge problem with the whole "we'll just run the last 8 cars and then fix it" mentality. I understand the idea of parity, but I was asked to run cars over conditions that I would never allow regionally. At what point does safety trump parity?

You were at 2013, were you at 2012? How about 2011?

At those three events, a course had to be changed mid run group for safety reasons. In 2011 the course went across a gigantic rut in a fast section for some reason, in 2012 multiple MF cars debeaded hard at the same spot in a certain corner, in 2013, well, 2013 happened.

In all cases, people bitched mightily. The people who happened to get in a good run before it went all to hell and HAD to be changed.

This is what happens if you don't change things, people. I will say this (here) once: Berk your personal agenda, things need to be both safe and fair for everyone. Forcing people to run on a badly degraded course is not safe and changing the course mid run is not fair. So the course WILL have to be changed and that run WILL have to be dropped. Or, you can have people totalling their cars because of petty bitching.

Knurled wrote: . It scared the crap out of me, both as a corner worker and a driver.

I have a hard time believing that anything scares you on a rallycross course, so what you just said is really saying a lot!

irish44j wrote: SCCA, Want to grow the sport? have three "major" regional events (East, West, Central) and forget about a single national championship that largely draws only from the center of the country (look at the entry list this year....1-2 cars from the entire east coast?). This will get a lot more competitors to events, especially if they're treated as national championships and not just glorified "local" events like the Divisionals are regarded as.

That is what we used to have with the Western and Eastern States Championships.

We don't do them anymore for some reason.

irish44j wrote:

Knurled wrote: . It scared the crap out of me, both as a corner worker and a driver.

I have a hard time believing that anything scares you on a rallycross course, so what you just said is really saying a lot!

Oh, I am frequently scared of things. The trick is to put it aside and deal with it.

As I explained to Alex, the guy working corner 3 with Bill, Evan, and I, who was wondering just how the heck we were running so fast compared to what he was doing with his MR car.

"Well," I said, "you just gotta get your legs apart a bit, and then grow a pair of big brass ones..."

I used to be slow. I think I still AM slow. Will would have won again if he didn't leave the handbrake on for one run, costing him like five seconds. (Hmm, so that's why the brakes stink)

On the other hand, if five seconds is a deal breaker, then I guess we're all pretty close, yeah? Heck, I only made it into 3rd place because the person who WAS in 3rd hit a cone and fell back two seconds. Tell me if you heard this one before: The gap between 1st and 3rd place was 1.1 seconds...

Riding with Will on the practice course was interesting. My driving style is very exit and power oriented. His is more brake modulation, and he manages to do the same thing Miles does where he can do something with the brakes that somehow pulls the nose like a foot closer to the inside of the corner. When I try to drive like that, my hands and feet get confused and I run really really badly. When I drive like me, our times were similar despite the different styles.

So, I credit my improvement over the last time I went nationally with my car not only to two years of learning to sight-read a course better, but also something Chris Hastings said to me when I was starting to get really bummed in 2012. "Just try to drive like Pete, that's what you know how to do." Then my times improved.

I can't wait to see what I can learn from Team O'Neill. Pete-style driving is going to evolve.

(Also: BLACK ROCKET TIRES RULE!)

(Yes, I'm babbling. I've been up for 20 hours now and most of that was inside a contraption that can be best described as a turbo 2-liter air raid siren)

irish44j wrote: ex: nobody cares who won the GLDiv challenge, or will remember (except those who were there). But now "Evan" is known to all rallycrossers nationwide .

Hah, suck it Kevin.

EvanB wrote:

irish44j wrote: ex: nobody cares who won the GLDiv challenge, or will remember (except those who were there). But now "Evan" is known to all rallycrossers nationwide .

Hah, suck it Kevin.

lol....well, you know by extention of Kevin beating you (the national champion) at GLDivs, I think that makes him the Global Champion, right?

Knurled wrote: When I drive like me, our times were similar despite the different styles.

Similar to how Nick and I ran almost identical times in my car in Ohio, but with very different driving styles. And Chris Nonack ran similar times to me in my car as well, and he drives much more like you do.

Which I why I always say there is no "right" way to drive rallycross since there are different ways to be fast on loose surfaces (which is not nearly as true on tarmac).

EvanB wrote: Hah, suck it Kevin.

So now everyone who placed higher than you can be all "I was faster than the national champion that one time!"

Speaking of which...

Will drives like this:

While Pete drives like this:

(Notice: We're both looking at the corner after the next one)

irish44j wrote:

Knurled wrote: When I drive like me, our times were similar despite the different styles.

Similar to how Nick and I ran almost identical times in my car in Ohio, but with very different driving styles. And Chris Nonack ran similar times to me in my car as well, and he drives much more like you do. Which I why I always say there is no "right" way to drive rallycross since there are different ways to be fast on loose surfaces (which is not nearly as true on tarmac).

It's just like what Ryosuke said about the old fart S2000 driver, there are many ways to take a corner as long as three critical points are the same...

Oh crap. I've outed myself as a dork.

Yea, well he doesn't have a fancy trophy with leaves on it. I'm just excited to win the GoPro, I've always wanted one to play with.

I wouldn't have won it if I didn't make a "sunvisor" on Sunday morning. Due to time constraints Saturday the Mod classes did their afternoon runs first thing Sunday morning. That meant that half of the course you were driving directly in the sun. On the parade lap I could barely see the course with my hand shielding the sun and that definitely wouldn't work when running. I don't have a sunvisor in the car but I did have duct tape so I taped off the top few inches of the windshield to block the sun. I was able to see the course clearly so I ran a decent time while Will ran with the handbrake on and lost most of his lead.

A flat out second run put me 2.4 seconds ahead in first which I was able to (barely) hold on to during the last two runs of the day. I thought for sure I had lost when I saw Will's last time but I was still .022 ahead for the win.

Knurled wrote:

EvanB wrote: Hah, suck it Kevin.

So now everyone who placed higher than you can be all "I was faster than the national champion that one time!"

I like that train of thought, personally.

"Yeah....so I've beaten the national champion every time we've run against each other." .

.

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. even if it was just that one time

One thing I did do this event was look ahead. I usually forget and focus on what is directly in front of me and get backed up. All weekend I forced myself to constantly look a few corners ahead and it helped tremendously.

mazdeuce wrote:

Jerry wrote: I'm hoping to become a safety steward for next year. I had the impression the safety steward could pretty much stop an event if he found something unsafe, and at least back it up with logic? Not get over-ruled by either the SCCA BOD or local region running the event? (I couldn't tell who was who sometimes.)

You would think that? Wouldn't you? I made my case about the safety steward operating conditions at the town hall meeting on Saturday.

Town hall meeting. LOL. You mean the "we are venting our frustrations and concerns to you about this organized chaos we call an event while the BOD looks on in boredom". Causing a steady stream of rallycrossers to eventually start filing out the back door.

EvanB wrote: Yea, well he doesn't have a fancy trophy with leaves on it. I'm just excited to win the GoPro, I've always wanted one to play with. I wouldn't have won it if I didn't make a "sunvisor" on Sunday morning. Due to time constraints Saturday the Mod classes did their afternoon runs first thing Sunday morning. That meant that half of the course you were driving directly in the sun. On the parade lap I could barely see the course with my hand shielding the sun and that definitely wouldn't work when running. I don't have a sunvisor in the car but I did have duct tape so I taped off the top few inches of the windshield to block the sun. I was able to see the course clearly so I ran a decent time while Will ran with the handbrake on and lost most of his lead. A flat out second run put me 2.4 seconds ahead in first which I was able to (barely) hold on to during the last two runs of the day. I thought for sure I had lost when I saw Will's last time but I was still .022 ahead for the win.

I'm still waiting on my GLDiv trophy. I told Orion to send that E36 M3 over, I have local people to impress, ya know?

I was watching the live timing and was wondering why will was so slow that run, figured he must have spun or something. I should have though of ebrake, seeing as I did the same thing for half a run last season until I started smelling the brakes.

Either way, that's rallycross. Winning by not screwing up like other people is just as good as winning by any other means. So congrats either way.

EvanB wrote: One thing I did do this event was look ahead. I usually forget and focus on what is directly in front of me and get backed up. All weekend I forced myself to constantly look a few corners ahead and it helped tremendously.

Exactly.

And you can't do that if your head is inside the car trying to keep it on course.

4th place? The guy who I only beat because he hit a cone? Stock NB except for the seat and airbag were removed, and wheel adapters so he could run FC RX-7 wheels. It's not about the car unless the car is keeping you from looking at the course.

irish44j wrote: Either way, that's rallycross. Winning by not screwing up like other people is just as good as winning by any other means. So congrats either way.

Oh, that reminds me of the Sunday course that had a series of gates that had no pointers anywhere, so if you were at rallycross speed it looked like a single cone since you couldn't see the other cone that made it a slalom. Probably 90-95% of the people who ran in Stock missed that gate on their first run. Evan wore out his vocal cords calling in the missed gates on the radio. Pointers were added after the first run was over but some people still missed it.

That video I posted? That gate is at the :40 mark. ( http://youtu.be/PQD_oW3wo9E?t=35s for reference ) The gate that had like a dozen fresh bright cones as pointers. I probably lost a few tenths there on both (! only two!) runs in the heat because I saw SO MANY PEOPLE completely screw up that corner.

mazdeuce wrote: I made it back home in time to send my wife off to work and drive the kids to school which is the greatest success of the weekend. As the rest of you finish your drives, come check in.

Almost forgot. Didn't win a damn thing, but attending my first championship was pretty cool. Even if it wasn't the most favorable impression. With so few runs I'm thinking I doomed myself right off the first run of the first heat when I came in too narrow on a corner and had no time to avoid missing a gate (or two I think). At that point I didn't know how many runs we were getting, being the relative noob here I figured a handful like a regional maybe. Nope, three. And I just completely blew #1.

The other two courses they didn't allow a course walk. Like everything else this weekend they were behind, delayed, confused, ... I didn't realize how bad that would screw with me. The parade laps were so slow and tightly bunched up I more focused on not running into the car in front of me. So first run? Kind of a fast parade lap. "Cone! ok E36 M3, where's the next? Cone!" Then one more run and done. Time to work the corners and sit for an eternity for every delay. Listening to the radio while the safety guys tried to do safety and control kept saying "can we send cars yet??????" was fun. (Working 2nd heat watching PF/PR/PA for reference)

Day two had a fun start, they kept saying the grid sheets were posted (like 3 times) yet they weren't. Orion helped me find Mr Clipboard only to find I didn't exist. Ok, I'm dead last but I still get to run right? lol. Also, Day one afternoon had me in a non-existent grid location so I just parked on the end.

I got to talk to a nice couple that were celebrating their 1yr wedding anniversary, that's commitment. Then she regaled me with her story of how E36 M3ty they treated her when she tried to ask various people questions over the weekend. Like "what you need to do is get back in your berkeleying car and get to grid". Seriously?

And yet through it all I'm STILL glad I went. Will I do it next year? Highly doubtful.

Knurled wrote:

mazdeuce wrote: but there was nothing about either corner that indicated that they were a hazard prior to either incident.

I disagree. It was a downhill off camber corner, going from a left bend on the top of the rise to a sharp right corner at the bottom of the hill. In soft ground. Quite frankly, I am pleased that ONLY one car rolled in that corner. It scared the crap out of me, both as a corner worker and a driver.

That was the planned change I referred to earlier. That spot needed to be fixed. However, the CRX was just about to flop on it's roof when it passed that point with both tires two feet inside the cone. He knocked the cone over with his roof.
There were so many bad parts of all of the courses, both by design and because things fell apart. I was certain we were going to lose a car where Wae (it was you right?) went up high on two wheels. I voiced my concerns several times during the session and could only get a small move. Frankly there was no way to fix it, you were turing on an off camber part of the track. It was like getting the first 10 degrees of your roll for free.
I think rather than saying that there was no defining reason for the cars to roll where they did, I should say that there were 5-6 other places where I thought cars were going to roll first. Being a safety steward was the worst part of the weekend for me. You guys were trusting me to have a safe course and I couldn't do that.