2017 Camaro SS LT1 Misfires - Dealer Can't/Won't Fix

CyberEric said:

I think I asked this 5 pages ago, but are the techs driving the car after they “fix” it?

They've driven it some after "fixing" it. Dealership #2, visit #4 - they replaced things in multiple stages after multiple test drives. I think the problem, is how motivated are they to determine if the car is fixed, when the reason it's broken is not easy to determine? The service manager at dealership #2 agreed with me that the only thing they fixed which had a chance at fixing the underlying issue was the fuel injectors. I've tried all sorts of tactics to try to entice GM Customer Care to act to ensure the car is fixed before it is returned. As far as I can tell, they flat out refuse to do anything but pass status information between the dealership and the customer.

Regarding the comments related to frustration - I try not to get frustrated, but it happens. I try to ask questions with the underlying purpose of encouraging accountability and verification, but it has not had much impact. Everyone I deal seems unwilling to deviate from a "repair" process that is clearly not working, or take any ownership of the problem.

With the most recent flashing CEL, I have to imagine high load/high RPM is a higher risk situation for the overall health of the engine. I mostly avoid using the full potential of the engine for that reason. I know the car is broken, I can't see how it will ever be fixed, I don't want it anymore, but I really don't want to destroy it. No matter how unethical GM is, I just can't bring myself do to that. Another human being will likely end up with this car at some point and what are the chances GM would fix it before selling it to them? I can't look myself in the mirror knowing I screwed someone else the way GM is screwing me. Additionally, GM could blame me for abuse. eg. if there is a flashing CEL and I continue driving it. If there's one thing I've learned through this process, GM does not believe GM has any culpability for the problem.

Regarding the popping, videos, etc. I've thought about that, but I don't think it's an issue of being able to reproduce problems. During every visit so far they've acknowledged a misfire problem.

hope it's soon tuned right it's only needing increased corporate support

It’s time to call a lawyer that specializes in car lemon laws or whatever it’s called in Canada. Seems like that’s going to be the only way to get this fixed or out of it. 

^ I would love to, but I think I will need a couple of additional invoices which confirm misfires. The CAMVAP binding arbitration process (closest thing to lemon law) had 171 cases last year in a country with a population of 37 million. Of those 55 resulted in a buy back.

Honestly, if they are unwilling / unable to fix it, I'd just be tempted to somewhat ignore the problem and drive it like it's meant to be driven.  When you get a flashing CEL, take it in and see what they think.  If it blows up before they fix it, well, that's their problem. 

Agreed with rslifkin.  They're telling you its fixed, so I'd go ahead and act like it.  You should also be extremely happy with the fact that you leased the vehicle vs having bought it.  At least you know at some point you're giving it back to them and its their problem then.

Agreed, disappointed with GM's response. But, it's a lease. In the end it's their problem.  Drive it till it breaks, send it back to the dealer.  Wash, rinse repeat.. 

So, how are Ecoboost Mustangs doing in autocross?  My interest in a 1LE 4-cylinder is dramatically waning at this point.

Got the car back after a couple of weeks at the dealership. Car was misfiring at idle in the parking lot. Oddly that's an improvement, it generally seemed to run a bit better than the last time I picked it up. (less exhaust popping, less unstable idle due to misfires)

They noted the long term fuel trims were problematic when they received the car at -12. They gave me output from their GDS2 showing -18/-18 when they returned the car to me (it bounces around, I'm not suggesting the car was returned worse). When they indicated the car was "fixed", I asked the service advisor point blank, could they confirm the long term fuel trims were within spec. Yes. Same question to GM customer care multiple times. Yes. The dishonesty is just astounding. This is the part I find unbelievable and the part that causes the most stress - How can these people behave like this? How can they continually treat me this way?

They changed the oil because it smelled like gas. It was 200 miles old. I'm guessing (but don't know) that the last dealership found the same thing and that's why they changed it early too. It's amazing how little regard GM has for the damage their repair avoidance/cost control cause to a customer's vehicles.

They changed the high pressure fuel pump without any evidence that it was broken. That's better than nothing. They also changed the plugs and a spark plug wire. Sounded like the wire had legitimately failed.

On the plus side I was told I could bring the car back in if I suspected issues and that did not require a full on CEL. I didn't take the car back in after starting it in the parking lot, because obviously they'd disagree. When they were troubleshooting, they temporarily swapped in a new MAF to see if that helped. Both of these are an improvement, they're finally willing to slightly alter their rigid procedures which make it impossible to actually repair a car.

So what’s the spec for long-term fuel trims?

and what documentation do you have that long-term fuel trims of -12 or even -18 will cause misfires?

If the oil smells like gas after 200 miles, this engine is already gone.  It shouldn’t be hard to drive to full on destruction and get a replacement.

AngryCorvair said:

So what’s the spec for long-term fuel trims?

and what documentation do you have that long-term fuel trims of -12 or even -18 will cause misfires?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, isn't +/-10 standard LTFT spec? The dealership defined -12 as problematic in their notes. Presumably greater is worse. I am certainly no expert, am I off base?

In reply to Snrub :

Depending on the manufacturer, anything less than 20 to 25% will not set a code.

Generally though, the variance is that wide to accomodate for fuel quality fluctiations and 100-150k miles of wear and degradation.  Unless it's a Ford, fuel trims should generally be under 7ish on a vehicle that new.  (Not digging against Ford at all - their controls strategy leans a lot more on fuel trim than other makes, and it works for them, but it can be startling to see, and maddening if you are trying to recal one and get trims under 2%)

Snrub said:

AngryCorvair said:

So what’s the spec for long-term fuel trims?

and what documentation do you have that long-term fuel trims of -12 or even -18 will cause misfires?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, isn't +/-10 standard LTFT spec? The dealership defined -12 as problematic in their notes. Presumably greater is worse. I am certainly no expert, am I off base?

So you don’t know the acceptable range of long-term fuel trims for your car.  Period, not question mark, because that’s not a question.  “Correct me if I’m wrong” and “presumably” and “I am certainly no expert” are not problem-solving terms.  

So you're saying that you started it in THEIR parking lot, and it was misfiring and running like poo.  You went inside, got the service manager and walked outside with him and asked "dude, is this normal?  Can we start a few more of these cars that are sitting here and see if they do that?"  And he said "sure".  Then you all spent an hour starting up various V8 GM vehicles and seeing if they misfired and popped and ran like poo just like your car?  And they all ran perfectly of course, so he said, "yep, your car is normal"...

I know I'm not there, and I don't mean to discredit you or your communication abilities, but seriously, I wouldn't be leaving there without a real good heart to heart conversation with a service manager where the conversation above would take place very deliberately...

Make him listen to 10 other cars on the lot, and then make him listen to your car, and look you straight in the eye and say "yep, that's fixed".  Seriously, is that how incompetent they are?  Would that really happen???

AngryCorvair said:

So you don’t know the acceptable range of long-term fuel trims for your car.  Period, not question mark, because that’s not a question.  “Correct me if I’m wrong” and “presumably” are “I am certainly no expert” are not problem-solving terms.  

Any suggestions for other metrics that can be looked at to determine if there still an issue after each plug change?

doc_speeder said:

So you're saying that you started it in THEIR parking lot, and it was misfiring and running like poo. 

Make him listen to 10 other cars on the lot, and then make him listen to your car, and look you straight in the eye and say "yep, that's fixed".  Seriously, is that how incompetent they are?  Would that really happen???

I've had past conversations where, very similar things to what you describe have occurred. For instance, the a person at the previous dealership looked me in the eye and agreed there was a problem when the symptoms were more severe, but there was nothing more they could do. I'm guessing it has to do with the amount of work they are authorized to perform, but I really don't know. Historically when I've raised problems of this magnitude it has been dismissed as being normal-ish. How do I know if the misfire behavior is within spec? Believe me I am pushing back, inquiring with leading questions, etc. every time I interact with people through this process. I've had plenty of heart to heart conversations. I am not lying down and taking it, but it's happening anyway. There is a systemic problem.

At this point, since you are in Canada, you should drive it onto a frozen lake, park it and leave it until it thaws. 

Oh I thought this was an ok parking space?!

I’ve never seen anyone worry so much about a rental. 

It’s not your car.  Drive it like you stole it. If the engine goes boom, let the guy who owns it worry about it. 

As far as worrying if the next owner gets screwed?  Totally not your problem. 

Its also not your problem that there are mechanics who are not good at diagnostics. And it’s not your problem that there are services managers out there who don’t focus on the details of preventative maintenance to avoid major problems. And it’s not your problem that there are manufacturers who offer less than stellar customer service. 

Frankly, most if this E36 M3 is not your problem. Drive the darned car and stop worrying about other people’s problems. 

You're never gonna fix the world. 

If it ever comes to replacing that engine it will go on the vehicle history report.

As in diminished value.

fasted58 said:

If it ever comes to replacing that engine it will go on the vehicle history report.

As in diminished value.

Diminished value is irrelevant on a leased car. It’s not his car, he is not harmed by any diminished value. 

Steve_Jones said:

fasted58 said:

If it ever comes to replacing that engine it will go on the vehicle history report.

As in diminished value.

Diminished value is irrelevant on a leased car. It’s not his car, he is not harmed by any diminished value. 

TLDR

I believe he wants to buy it off lease

Steve_Jones said:

fasted58 said:

If it ever comes to replacing that engine it will go on the vehicle history report.

As in diminished value.

Diminished value is irrelevant on a leased car. It’s not his car, he is not harmed by any diminished value.  

At this point, with the exhaustive attempts to have the car fixed. I'd say he's not on the hook for any damages should the rods take leave of the block during a spirited excursion down the freeway on-ramp.  Whether it remains under warranty or not.  I'm with SVreX on this one. Drive it like Bo Duke (well maybe not take any sweet jumps) until it dies or you turn it in.  If they try to come after you regarding a damage claim, the sordid service history where the OP tried to get the issue fixed is more than enough to get them to back off.  EDIT:  No way in Hell i would buy the thing.  I'm a GM fanboy, but if they can't fix the thing now when it's their responsibility they damn well ain't going to fix it when it's on your dime.

Yeah, I find it highly unlikely that he's going to buy this car back.  I'm with everyone else.  Drive this thing hard, if it blows up, its GM's problem.  If it doesn't, hand it back to them at the end of the lease and be done with it.

TLDR

I believe he wants to buy it off lease

I sure hope he has changed his mind

at this point, with all the unsatisfactory repairs.. couldn't he get out of the lease with no fees or fines?