I have not been charged for any of the three visits to dealership #2.
I have not been charged for any of the three visits to dealership #2.
Seems easy enough to disprove if they insist thats how camaros run. Challenge them to go take one off the lot and run it. See how many misfires it has.
Ive been on enough automotive forums to have seen corporate step in and make things right once the poo starting flying on a forum. GRM may be too general. If you havent already, post up on whatever the big camaro forum is. They dont really want details of their suckiness out there for all to see.
Either way, good luck.
Can you tell them that people (me) are hearing about his and are losing interest in ever owning a Camaro?
This experience just sucks, so frustrating. I agree with TJL, ask them to test another car.
Are their techs actually driving the damn car to see if they can reproduce a CEL or other abnormality?
If a model T had a cylinder misfiring 25-50%+ of combustion events for 2 minutes straight (I have this data, I'm not exaggerating), I'd be concerned. I have no doubt a "working" car does not do this. I had -20% fuel long term fuel trims in multiple conditions on both cylinder banks. With more time before CEL resets, I'm sure I could get some conditions maxed out at -25%. I was planning to challenge them to show me a new car from the lot that did this, but their explanation of their capabilities make sense. From their perspective there is no difference, yet they know there is. They drove the car multiple times and I imagine they experienced all of this. Are they driving while watching monitoring to find trouble spots and then experimenting with different driving techniques, etc. to find/stimulate the issue like I am? Probably not, but it doesn't matter, it's not something they can do. Unless the a code gives them a clear cut plan of action, it would be pretty tough for them to fix any problem. Let me reiterate that this is the good dealer service department and they are trying to work within the limitations of their own box.
The regular Camaro forum has a lot of people who are still stuck in which Chevy/Ford/Dodge car is better from the 60's debate, yet they're "new car" people. I posted a thread up there and received crickets for responses. It's easy to forget how much better this forum is, until you start using other ones. ;) I'm sure they'd get that the service sucks, but the basic technical details are beyond most of them. I've fixed almost everything that can be fixed on a car, yet I don't claim to meet the average skill level on this forum.
The more I read about the CAMVAP process (non-legal lemon law equivalent), I'm not optimistic.
Snrub said:I was planning to challenge them to show me a new car from the lot that did this, but their explanation of their capabilities make sense. From their perspective there is no difference, yet they know there is. They drove the car multiple times and I imagine they experienced all of this. Are they driving while watching monitoring to find trouble spots and then experimenting with different driving techniques, etc. to find/stimulate the issue like I am? Probably not, but it doesn't matter, it's not something they can do. Unless the a code gives them a clear cut plan of action, it would be pretty tough for them to fix any problem. Let me reiterate that this is the good dealer service department and they are trying to work within the limitations of their own box.
Their data logging abilities are much more advanced than that. Hell my old tech II clone can pull and record individual cylinder misfire data live while driving and its old.
Is that a flex fuel car? Is the alcohol content being computed incorrectly?
Definitely something is off. I would think with emissions, that any misfires would be frowned upon. My 2003 Burb 8.1L with 250k miles on it doesn't show any misfire counts on any cylinder when I checked it, even after a hour of driving. Can't see your misfire rate as being "normal". Hopefully they figure out what is wrong soon, that would drive me crazy going back to dealers for the same problem multiple times.
Does your reader reset the CEL history every time you use it? Is that a factor in why they aren’t seeing the data?
Cotton said:Snrub said:I was planning to challenge them to show me a new car from the lot that did this, but their explanation of their capabilities make sense. From their perspective there is no difference, yet they know there is. They drove the car multiple times and I imagine they experienced all of this. Are they driving while watching monitoring to find trouble spots and then experimenting with different driving techniques, etc. to find/stimulate the issue like I am? Probably not, but it doesn't matter, it's not something they can do. Unless the a code gives them a clear cut plan of action, it would be pretty tough for them to fix any problem. Let me reiterate that this is the good dealer service department and they are trying to work within the limitations of their own box.
Their data logging abilities are much more advanced than that. Hell my old tech II clone can pull and record individual cylinder misfire data live while driving and its old.
I'm not buying that their scan tool can only see codes. Any GM dealership has to have at least one MDI and GDS 2. And GDS 2 can see damn near everything that goes on in a vehicle. Including misfires, even if there isn't a DTC set. Make their tech ride shotgun with a laptop and MDI hooked up and drive the vehicle under the conditions it acts up. If they can't do that, they're a joke
Stay on em, fight the good fight. At least you have some techs who seem to be willing to work with you, even if they don't seem to know what they are doing. All to common these days i'm afraid. We're pulling for you.
NickD said:Make their tech ride shotgun with a laptop and MDI hooked up and drive the vehicle under the conditions it acts up. If they can't do that, they're a joke
I'd ask the service manager to fold into the rear seat to feel the misfires. At least then no one can tell you they are unable to replicate the condition.
NickD said:I'm not buying that their scan tool can only see codes. Any GM dealership has to have at least one MDI and GDS 2. And GDS 2 can see damn near everything that goes on in a vehicle. Including misfires, even if there isn't a DTC set. Make their tech ride shotgun with a laptop and MDI hooked up and drive the vehicle under the conditions it acts up. If they can't do that, they're a joke
It's not that they claimed they can only see codes, they suggested it was difficult for them to obtain/monitor general data when a code wasn't present. I fully recognized at the time they told me this, that you provided contrary information earlier in this thread. I was wondering if being in a backwater nation they only had access to some old soviet knockoff device?
OHSCrifle - I don't think torque is resetting codes, the light is still present after I check and I can see the code with a old $30 harbor fright code reader.
I suspect there are two issues now. The original issue which may have partially improved with the new injectors and I suspect they somehow didn't install a fuel injector correctly in the really bad cylinder. Is it possible the AFIT test can't diagnose an intermittent issue and other injectors could be bad?
Just for E36 M3s and giggles find an independent shop that has a great L1 tech. He will be able to see the misfires. Pay to have him give a diagnosis. Have them smoke the intake. Misfires should be 0.
Then either go back to Chevy or make the car catch on fire......this bullE36 M3 has gone on too long. I mean we aren’t talking about some mysterious hybrid problem. It’s a damn V8 LS motor for crying out loud.
sergio said:I mean we aren’t talking about some mysterious hybrid problem. It’s a damn V8 LS motor for crying out loud.
LT architecture, whole new engine and a fair bit more complicated.
This dealer sounds much more pleasant to do business with but so far they sound pretty incompetent. Have they even started a TAC case? Seems like after 5 total dealer visits, GM would be looking into sending a Field Service Engineer. If you were closer I'd tell you to bring it to my dealership and I'd dive into it personally
Given the age of the car, GM is liable for all Check engine lights that show up. So you can contact Environment Canada to get them to do their jobs.
You should not be liable for anything at this point.
sergio said:Just for E36 M3s and giggles find an independent shop that has a great L1 tech. He will be able to see the misfires. Pay to have him give a diagnosis. Have them smoke the intake. Misfires should be 0.
Then either go back to Chevy or make the car catch on fire......this bullE36 M3 has gone on too long. I mean we aren’t talking about some mysterious hybrid problem. It’s a damn V8 LS motor for crying out loud.
AFM is not a great system. It’s currently in a class action suit.
I would be concerned with the cat codes as a plugged (melted )cat will cause rich issues.your current dealer can also look at previous owner warrant issues which may help them (miss fires etc)Do you also have a lack of power ???damaged cats will also cause that.Never mind being concerned about what to do about the car when the lease runs out deal with current concern.
Can I clear up a few things?
Running rich, by itself, does not harm the catalyst. OEMs run rich to control the catalyst temps, actually. Misfires will hurt the catalyst pretty quickly, though. A constant dead miss is the worst, but the ones that are being talked about here will hurt things, but not enough to melt the substrate.
Between the US and Canada, fuel is pretty tightly regulated. There are regional and seasonal blends all across each country, sure. But finding “bad fuel” is very, very unlikely. OEMs are robust to some pretty bad fuel, but the time that you would notice is the first few seconds of driving, before the O2 sensors come alive. After that, they will be in full control, and will offset and odd blends.
DI does not universally require an oil separator. Some do, but the ones that have had the worst problems have had intake deposit problems for decades. (I’m looking at you, bmw).
The AFM mechanism isn’t that great. This is a system that will turn on and off 4 of the 8 cylinders to save fuel. And GM really is currently being sued for it. This is the most likely spouse of the core problem.
But DI injectors still have issues, so I’m not taking that off the table.
Still, IMHO, this should be all GMs to take care of. If the cats are destroyed, they pay for it.
Since you want to keep this car, document this to death until they change the engine.
The last case I seen this bad was with a new kia, after 6 dealer trips they swore nothing was wrong. I work at a quick lube and we managed too pull 3 codes for cam to crank variation. It took her a lawyer and almost 6 months too get Kia too buy the car back.
Snrub said:
...On the drive home I realized the car would misfire badly with 1/3+ throttle at 1500-2000rpm... So there was an obvious driving method to get the CEL on. Took it out for a 5-10 minute drive that evening and got the CEL back on...
Techs often don't get paid for diagnostic time so if the problem can't be easily replicated they just can't spend a lot of time on intermittent issues. They make an educated guess and get paid for replacing the part(s) that they guessed were bad. Since you now have a reliable way to create at least part of the problem (the check engine light) the quoted stuff above is the most useful information you can share with them.
Also check grounds.
APEowner said:Snrub said:...On the drive home I realized the car would misfire badly with 1/3+ throttle at 1500-2000rpm... So there was an obvious driving method to get the CEL on. Took it out for a 5-10 minute drive that evening and got the CEL back on...Techs often don't get paid for diagnostic time so if the problem can't be easily replicated they just can't spend a lot of time on intermittent issues. They make an educated guess and get paid for replacing the part(s) that they guessed were bad. Since you now have a reliable way to create at least part of the problem (the check engine light) the quoted stuff above is the most useful information you can share with them.
Now I realize that it can be tough to calculate fair hours for diagnostic time since diagnosis is such an open-ended procedure but jeez, somehow you gotta pay the man.
NickD - I don't know if they have a TAC case, but they confirmed they've been communicating with GM engineers. You're *only* 5 hours away, so depending how crazy things get, I may take you up on your offer. :)
They're working on the car today. They indicated the cat needs to be replaced (ie. the P0430 I saw), "probably due to the misfires" and it will likely be about a week. They acknowledged the misfire problem with one cylinder, but not the others. We'll see what they determine, but it looks like dealer visit #7 is in my future.
GM customer care decided to close my second case and give me back to the first, less than decent "ambassador." I objected (he gave incorrect information, he didn't return my call, etc.), but that didn't seem to work.
Paying the tech's based on piece work is a lousy system in terms of how it affects the customer. I think a similar system could use an overall metric (ie. if a service department's billing costs are x% above average based on the customer/problem profile, the service department gets paid for the average rate). Let the foreman/service manager determine who deserves to be paid what on an hourly, or salary basis. That way you can incentivize the staff who are fast at routine jobs, as well as the guys who are good at troubleshooting complex problems which take more time. The tech who works on my car shouldn't have to think about the half day of pay he's going to miss out on.
Even if they put a new engine in it it will still have all the same electronics on it so that will solve nothing.
alfadriver said:Can I clear up a few things?
Running rich, by itself, does not harm the catalyst. OEMs run rich to control the catalyst temps, actually.
THANKYOU.
I see this all the time... "I hurt the CAT [why do people treat "cat" like an anagram?] because I have it running rich under boost". No. No you did not.
Hell, Mazda had their older EFI rotaries running just barely leaner than too rich to ignite when at WOT or over 2500-3800rpm (depending on year), specifically to save the cats. I only say "older" because I am only familiar with the older products. There is a ton of power to be had in rotaries by leaning them out from where Mazda had them. Back when factory engine management was required, Improved Touring racers who had to use the stock FC computers were running as low as 25psi fuel pressure (from 43) to try to get the engines to make power. When I used to play with stock-carbed 12As, the first thing I'd do would be to install a fuel pressure regulator to get the fuel pressure down from 4-ish psi to about 1-1.5, whatever that setup liked. Lower float settings would result in leaner mixtures due to the way the emulsion wells worked in those Nikki carbs. As a bonus to the additional power achieved, fuel economy would rocket from 20mpg to at least 24, usually 27mpg.
On the other hand, I did have to smog a car like this once. The converter got me to the test station and back,about ten miles in total, and when I removed it maybe 1/3rd of the cells were visibly melted and plugged. But it passed with flying colors.
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