$2017 Challenge Concour Points and Judging

We have been to 12 of the 17 Challenges. The Concour has been thru multiple versions. We have finished as low as 55th and won that part of the event 3 times. We have won when we did not expect too. We have lost when we did not expect too.

IMO, three minutes to judge a car is too short of a duration for radical builds. But the judges have 50 cars to look at. I want to spend the prep time, but if I can’t show it, why bother? Where is the balance?

If cars that are not contending for the show win or the overall win were not judged, would that afford more time for the judges to look, score, socialize, etc? Many would like to have more time with the judges through social interaction and in the competition. To be fair to the judges, they probably want to visit more also.

How do we get more time to be judged and relieve the judges of the marathon effort they invest?

Question 1. Would a 12.5 “Standard Score” speed up the whole process, if a competitor were to forgo that segment?

Question 2. Should the judges only look at the top dynamic scoring cars? No one has won the overall and finished below 15th in the Concours. And, since the 2003 Challenge 14 of the 14 overall winners were in the top 3 in dynamic score.

Question 3. Should the cars that want to be judged identify themselves and be included in that part?

Question 4. Do the truck/vans/luxobarges get judged separately?

Before anyone cries about “you think too highly of yourself” or “I’m going to stay positive but whine, whine, whine…”, let’s focus the answer on what is best for the whole event.

Better judging for the overall? More time to visit Al Unser or Ray Evernham? Or, everyone get judged?

Does relieving the judge duties attract more people like Adam Carolla? And/or make their involvement better?

Does limiting the number of cars being judged in the Concour improve the event for the competitors?

Wow, it's like you were a fly on the wall during yesterday's meeting. Yes, the concours judging. We originally made the concours part of the event in order to encourage people to build attractive cars. To be honest, we'd rather have a field of innovative, good looking cars than a bunch of heaps. So that's where it comes from. It also gives us a chance to spend some team with each team--let's hear your story and put you in the spotlight.

The trick is judging everyone to the same level. Yes, getting a judging team to spend a few minutes with each and every car is exhausting. It wipes out the involved staff and pretty much keeps us from getting any celebrity judges. Now we see why traditional concours feature so many classes. It's way easier to look at 8-10 cars than 40-50.

So we have been discussing some possible solutions.

We could break up the field into classes, each with their own judging team, but how do you keep things consistent across the entire field?

We could only judge the top-running cars, but is that fair to everyone else?

We could shorten the time that the judges spend with each team, but is that fair to the radical builds?

One idea that Andrew mentioned: Would some kind of standard basic score (think of it like the standard deduction on your taxes) speed up things? You can take it or not.

Discuss.

The "standard deduction" score gives an unfair advantage to the ugly turds that Team Stampie brings.

I my self Totally get where you Come from, Call it at the Top 20-25 Finishers, or If there is no way you can complete the two segments that contribute to the Overall then an Honorable mention should be enough. No one is bringing a Trailer Queen to a race, we have had some Beautifully Finished race cars, Not much finish work Is done to a Vette Cart or a car/truck with the Insides ripped out but they should be Fast.

I understand how tedious it must be to judge 50 cars. I don't have an answer, but if people opt for a standard score and/or not be judged by the GRM staff for overall you might arrange some type of "Peoples Choice" award voting for the rest of the competitors. Could be voted by all spectators...or have a "competitors choice" award to be voted by the teams (each team would get 1 vote).

Or even both. And make it an award given at banquet for cars that did not compete in the concours. At least some form of peer recognition for people's efforts. And if a car that opted out of the formal concours won a people's/competitor choice award add 5 points to their standard score to allow them to place in the overall competition.

I obviously haven't thought this out.

In reply to Patrick:

Dayum...you're cold

If 20% of the total score is based on subjective judging then the judges need to take whatever time it requires, while attempting to make it objective (maybe). To Andrew's point about top dynamic score cars doing well in judging, is that a cause or an effect? Personally, I don't care much for the concours and would take the 12.5 points. BUT, 2 points acquired in concours is pretty much the same as going 1 second faster in the dynamic portion. Much to think about.

Patrick wrote: The "standard deduction" score gives an unfair advantage to the ugly turds that Team Stampie brings.

Hey at least I painted my car last year. Never mind the fact it was with a roller by an eight year old.

My thoughts: i like what ovid had to say.

I also think that maybe a roving judging could work. I know for us that cleaning the car after racing makes ut still less good than when it came off the trailer. So maybe during the autocross or drag porions, have a scheduled 15 minute spot for judging in as run condition.that should allow for build quality over presentation quality (detailing wise) to be judged. And also a little less stress on the judges, with more time to use for learning the car.

Just my incoherent thoughts.

Of course the other thing you could do is eliminate the GRM judges completely and let competitors/spectators vote and award arbitrary values for number of votes to be added to dynamic scores.

Judges just hang out and drink beer with us

I need to follow along with this. The secret project im working on specifically for the concourse could turn into a time suck if the rules change much.

a year or so back I made a comment that a top time in drag and auto cross could negate a low quality finish in concors and all the finishing positions for the last few years were pointed out to me. EVENTUALLY the C4 will be finished and it will look like a finished car that you would want to be seen in, I don't know if a sorted out c4 chassie is enough and I don't know if the 454 is enough but the body and interior will have a finished look and hopefully a top 3 in each will do it.

Remember, a portion of the concourse is for "Engineering" . A well prepped Miata won't do well on that portion, no matter how pretty it looks. This isn't a concourse in the conventional sense. Fabrication, repurposing, innovation all go a long way.

I'm ok with separating out the judges so that each judge does 8-10 cars (even if by lottery and not classes per say), rather than 5 judges doing 40-50 as a group marathon.

It's not like it's easy to keep things even when one person judges 50 cars anyway. You could easily have a fifth judge (Tom? Tim?) score one from each judge's group to do a quick check for consistency.

Standard deduction score I don't like because it could easily become a 'minimum' score, which if any higher than 0 just makes the range of concourse scores smaller from best to worst.

Dead Skunk said it right.

What about doing a Pugh matrix or FMEA style scoring sheet? Set up the sheet with three or four criteria:innovation, cleanliness, etc. Each vehicle would be given a score 1-5 on each criteria or simplified 1,3,5. 5=great, 1=fail. Each team would be randomly assigned 3-5 cars to judge and each judge 10 or however many is required so that all teams are judged by one judge in addition to the assigned teams. Each criteria would have a predetermined but undisclosed weighting factor. All score sheets would be multiplied by the weighting factor and then tabulated and averaged. Does GRM have any interns they can bring along to the event? (They must have good Excel skills.)

Maybe everyone at the concourse should get a Participation Ribbon? Yeah, that's the ticket.

In reply to John Welsh :

Still have mine...and unopened juice box

Let the competitors self-judge concours in the morning, then the judges can personally review the top-10 for their score.

I enjoyed getting to show off my cars by the only time the concurs really impacted the event for me was when I brought my Morris in 2013, I was hoping to have better dynamic scores so it was in consequential.

My understanding is that there have been changes since then and it is less strictly concurs style judging. I think finding a way to spotlight cars would give people a chance to show off their work (maybe even just letting people project slide shows of their builds).

Building to make the car presentable for the concurs adds difficulty to the challenge and can eat up some budget and time but it is a magazine event so understood having a good looking car helps. I have taken my Morris to the cars and coffee at the Amelia Island concurs and not felt out of place because of that extra effort to build for the concours.

With that being said if I don't stand a chance of winning the event or concours I don't mind not getting a specific score. Feedback on how to do better is great but I don't care if I scored a 10 or 15 if I place 10th overall. Just my $0.02

Ovid_and_Flem wrote: I understand how tedious it must be to judge 50 cars. I don't have an answer, but if people opt for a standard score and/or not be judged by the GRM staff for overall you might arrange some type of "Peoples Choice" award voting for the rest of the competitors. Could be voted by all spectators...or have a "competitors choice" award to be voted by the teams (each team would get 1 vote). Or even both. And make it an award given at banquet for cars that did not compete in the concours. At least some form of peer recognition for people's efforts. And if a car that opted out of the formal concours won a people's/competitor choice award add 5 points to their standard score to allow them to place in the overall competition. I obviously haven't thought this out.

An intervention award...Hmmm....

I lost faith in concourse when an unwashed stock Geo placed higher. Than the saab I stripped painted and reassembled.

Pete Gossett wrote: Let the competitors self-judge concours in the morning, then the judges can personally review the top-10 for their score.

This was my thought as well- it would be fun to have that level of involvement, and most of the challenge competitors I've met seemed like decent enough people and wouldn't just vote for their own car in the hopes of a high score.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ wrote:

Pete Gossett wrote: Let the competitors self-judge concours in the morning, then the judges can personally review the top-10 for their score.

This was my thought as well- it would be fun to have that level of involvement, and most of the challenge competitors I've met seemed like decent enough people and wouldn't just vote for their own car in the hopes of a high score.

Just make it where you CAN'T vote for own. And have to put your name on the ballot to keep you honest.

Patrick wrote: The "standard deduction" score gives an unfair advantage to the ugly turds that Team Stampie brings.

Possibly. But if it improves the overall experience for the event (judges have more time), what is the consequence of that "advantage"? I ask in a serious effort. The intent of my original post is to generate discussion to help improve the event.

It may turn out that a little tough love is needed to improve the event. Some folks enter because this is all the love they can get. They will defend the 'everyone should get some love' position. I understand that, society now rewards participation as being more important than excellence in many youth oriented programs, and those kids are now entering adulthood. I see it, I just don't agree that it has much value and/or should be encouraged after high school. Maybe I need to change, maybe folks need tough love. I am trying to keep an open mind and see the merits of all opinions. I only know that when I was a kid and my team lost we walked home without a trophy in hand, but there was a fire to do better in our belly.

Regardless, the Concour is 20% of the score and 50% of the time at Gainesville. And the look of exhaustion on the judges faces at the end is clear.

My original question is; "How do we improve the whole experience for the most people involved?" The answer may be, "Should there be an independent group that identifies the 'Best Engineered'?" And/or, "Should there be an independent group that identifies the best in the 'Luxo/Van/Truck class'?" The answer could be, judge the right cars. If you think you're a player (overall or concour), enter.