$2017 Challenge Concour Points and Judging

SVreX wrote: In reply to Ovid_and_Flem: Yep. And you and I are poodles. Lol!

Can't wait to see Tim or JG trotting around arena with me on a leash!

In reply to poopshovel again:

You realize the Concours is no longer done on competition days, right?

eastsidemav said: I'd be more inclined to trust the fairness of the judges if they were split into multiple teams that didn't judge every vehicle than I would going for an opt-out situation.

eastsidemav said: Say the judges were split into two teams, who then each reviewed 50% of the competitors(with some form of blind selection), then, each judging team gave the other team a list of the top 2-3 cars they judged (without revealing their scores), which would then be re-judged by the team that hadn't judged it before. This way, you'd reduce fatigue, and in theory, the best cars would get a more thorough review.

I agree with this system. Either more judges, or less cars per judge. Pick the top few cars from the first round and have the other judges score those too. I don't like the "opt-out" or "narrow the field down" situations at all. I like reading the magazine results and comparing every single car's stats, including concours points.

The only thing I would add to the not all judges judge every car idea is this: There should be a final round of judging where the top 5 or so for concours are all seen by the same people.

More judges is likely not the answer. More effort to get them to commit, not the same field, etc.

SEMA gets the builders challenge down to 10 and invest a lot into those select vehicles. The reduces number of cars for the judges to focus on is good. Is there a Go-NoGo method to help meet the goal. Dynamic leaders + I brought a car to show + Peoples Choice???

We all have to bring the cars to the pavilion. Competitors enter the morning of the judging and get immediate competitor (all or select group [10]) feedback, thumbs up go to West side and sit in line, thumbs down go East side and line up. Judges, here are your 25 cars to compare. Is there too much risk of an injury by have vehicles moving in a parade and then parking? Think of the children...

Speed and simplicity of the process has to be considered. Complicated methods are not going to succeed.

The one day all cars under the roof format has been a really great addition to the event IMO. However, being asked to do more may be a challenge for some. Many of us are talking to the folks who visit through that entire part of the event.

MrJoshua wrote: The only thing I would add to the not all judges judge every car idea is this: There should be a final round of judging where the top 5 or so for concours are all seen by the same people.

Agreed

maschinenbau wrote:

eastsidemav said: I'd be more inclined to trust the fairness of the judges if they were split into multiple teams that didn't judge every vehicle than I would going for an opt-out situation.

eastsidemav said: Say the judges were split into two teams, who then each reviewed 50% of the competitors(with some form of blind selection), then, each judging team gave the other team a list of the top 2-3 cars they judged (without revealing their scores), which would then be re-judged by the team that hadn't judged it before. This way, you'd reduce fatigue, and in theory, the best cars would get a more thorough review.

I agree with this system. Either more judges, or less cars per judge. Pick the top few cars from the first round and have the other judges score those too. I don't like the "opt-out" or "narrow the field down" situations at all. I like reading the magazine results and comparing every single car's stats, including concours points.

I doubt the write up for each car is based on the 3 minute show. I see the staffers working their butts off talking to each team independent of the judging. Am I missing something?

You can flip the argument and have the Concorse first then go racing. Only the top half of the concourse field gets to race to alow more time for the concourse.

You are going to piss off someone no matter what you do.

wheels777 wrote: More judges is likely not the answer. More effort to get them to commit, not the same field, etc.

SEMA is not writing a magazine. The Concours is where the stories come from.

Why do you think more judges would be hard? Every single year there have been former contestants standing around watching the fun without a car. It would be easy to get 3 or 4 of these folks to volunteer.

I already volunteered.

In reply to SVreX:

What happens if Volunteer Judge A is mad that Team B bought Kick Shiny Car C 15 minutes before Volunteer Judge A called trying to buy the car? Not saying it would happen. I think a standard point for volunteering to sit out Concours is best. Not high enough points that it becomes a strategy but just enough points that teams who don't care to be judged will sit out.

SVreX wrote: In reply to poopshovel again: You realize the Concours is no longer done on competition days, right?

I did not. My bad. Sadly, I've been out of the game for a while.

So what's the "new" format?

it's interesting that the actual core question has not been asked.

How do you win the Concourse?

For the Challenge, winning the autocross or drag race is easy to know- just go faster. And we all know that there are huge numbers of trade offs to do that, relative to being fast in the autocross or drag race (or both). Plus that all relates to money in an easy to identify way.

But winning the concourse is pretty much unknown.

First you know that it means a "clean car"- but what does that actually mean?

It was also identified that a modified car gets an advantage, as that is encouraged? But what does that actually mean?

IMHO, defining what that means, and how that relates to scores is the most important question. Judges are meaningless until that is defined.

If you go to any other scored concourse- you know what is worth points and what is not worth points. Where over restoring is encouraged, and having the right amount of overspray is key. Even though it's still a subjective score, the areas that are looked at, and the importance of that is well defined on paper.

So in that respect, I would suggest a basic numeric system.

Not sure how to set up the system, but I can see some various degrees of car prep-

First is cleanliness- how clean is the car? Points for the outside, points for the engine compartment, points for the interior, and points for the underside.

Next- changes- points for the degree of changing- from just a paint job to total fabrications.

The hard part here- GRM and the community needs to value all of that.

Here's my value- I would put half the available points toward being a clean car. Of that- 40% outside, 30% engine compartment, 25% inside, and 5% underside.

For the other half of the points- Paint only could be 30% of the point total- maybe distribute that to half just being a respray and the other half being a creative paint job. Then the next 70% of the remaining points can be for fabrication- some for an engine swap, some for an engine relocation, some for body work- etc- but fixed numbers so that people KNOW what points are on the table. But that would differentiate full car builds like Andy's- who would get 100% of the points because of moving the engine, full car mods, and full respray all the way down to our last challenge car that just had some basic creative decorations and the engine compartment respray- call it say 10%.

When you cut it up like that- it makes judging a WHOLE lot easier, because it's easy to tell car A from car B.

Then we can talk about the number of judges that do the work.

SVreX, Yea, uh, No. Judging needs to be done by people that Have no Idea who is who. I'll say right Now I Know I haven't Scored points with Most here,For the most part I don't play well with Others, Am a Poor loser, and, and, well, Just a Peckerhead when it comes to racing.But I do like to Smile for the Camera, and..."There's no Thrill Like the Thrill that you Get with your Picture on the Cover Of GRM."

In reply to poopshovel again:

New (current) format:
Autox: Fri morning
Drag: Fri evening
Concourse: Sat afternoon under the pavilion

Also leaves the contingency that if it rains Fri then concourse will be Fri evening and Drag rescheduled to Sat afternoon.

wheels777 wrote:

MrJoshua wrote: The only thing I would add to the not all judges judge every car idea is this: There should be a final round of judging where the top 5 or so for concours are all seen by the same people.

Agreed

That makes sense!

Also: Having not competed in years, if my opinions don't mean squat, please feel free to say so (seriously.)

I still love reading the coverage, and want people to have fun, be creative, and COME BACK so the event stays alive.

I've hated the concours since before we even made our first showing in '04, and hated it even more after we spent a godzillion ours making the s00p3rturd "pretty" when all that time could've been spent making it FASTER.

Granted, we got a cover-shot and a write-up for all that blood, sweat, and beers, so I don't want to sound salty about it. But I'll never put in that much effort to make a "pretty" car again. It's just not my thing.

If there's a way to make the concours suck less for the competitors and staff/judges, I'm all about it!

In reply to John Welsh :

That doesn't sound so bad.

In reply to alfadriver:

To follow up on my post- right now- the rules are 10 points for innovation, 10 points for execution, and 5 points for presentation.

And since I hate the idea of some kind of contrived presentation, I'm going to put 2 points of presentation to execution (looks) and 3 to innovation.

For the 12 points of presentation:
5 points for exterior appearance.
4 points for under hood appearance
2 points for interior appearance
1 point for underside (gotta make sure car is nice- so this is a clean or not clean)

I can see making the underhood and interior the same at 3. But outside should get the majority, since that's what all cars have in the magazine.

Innovation:
1) 1 point to add major power adder that is well done
2) 1 point for a major engine swap (these two can be additive if 2 is part of 1)
3) 2 points for an engine move
4) 2 points for an powertrain layout change- FWD to RWD or any to AWD.
5) 2 points for minor body work modifications- either making light weight body parts or completely new ones
6) 2 more points for major body work changes- not sure how to define this.
7) 1 point for a basic paint respray
8) 2 points for creative respray (so minor creativity can get 1 more point).

Some of those are easy to judge- you did it or not.

That also separates the quality of the work (as seen in the presentation) with the actual work.

It should make the actual points judging a lot quicker, and that should allow for some more BS time. It also takes out the oddball car that nobody knows about getting more or less points just because it's an oddball. It also takes out the natural bias toward what people think is cool.

What do you think?

In reply to GTXVette:

I'm pretty sure that every judge has known at least 80% of the people every year, so that's not gonna happen

In reply to alfadriver:

I like your approach Alfa. Now just needs to be put into a simple to read/fill out form. That will help others understand the scope of what you have laid out. Also it puts the teams on the hook for knowing how much to expect from the concourse segment. Of course I come at this as an engineer, so delineated scoring in a simple format is something I strive for everyday.
I agree that once the segments of the concourse are broken down, the number of judges (individual or teams) will probably start to show it's own answer.
Others have mentioned a competitor vote, for vehicles other than your own, which is a good way to keep the overall group interested and encourage teams to look at and learn from other teams work. That SHOULD generally increase the overall magazine worthy efforts.

In reply to alfadriver:

There is already a pretty clearly defined point system. It's in the rules.

I disagree with everyone who says no one knows how to win the Concours. I think the current rules do an excellent job defining that, and the judges have done a pretty good job sticking to the rules.

The one year I tried my hardest to win the Concourse I fell short. Scored 22.5 out of 25 on an effort I had worked at extensively for a year. Several people told me it was proof that the Concours was arbitrary.

I went back and read the rules carefully. The truth is, I had missed several points that were very clearly defined.

So, I would suggest that the only thing arbitrary in the current Concours scoring is the level of reading comprehension (for guys like me!).

Bravo, GRM!

It's kinda like a wedding. You (grm staff) want to visit every guest, and you visit with many people throughout the day, but the best time to make sure you see everyone is when all the guests are sitting down and not moving around.

If you want to sit out of the concourse (I will reiterate) - you are welcome to take a 0 under current rules. Many people do BTW.

It's a three part event. I like that it is a three part event. Could I volunteer to sit out the autox? Sure, also allowed and consequences are spelled out in current rules.

I would be really disappointed to not get judged at all, even if my effort was not top ten or whatever. I happen to like my builds and think they have value even if not everyone does. That's what creates variety and new ideas. If I have to get top ten before I can be judged then I have to rethink my builds in order to prioritize something everyone will like. (And boo for that).

GRM rules say:

"The third venue will be concours judging. Cars will be parked in a centralized location, with hoods, trunks and doors opened for the judges and competitors to view. Entrants will have 3 minutes maximum to present their cars and share their story with the judges. If we like you and/or your story, some bonus time may be awarded. Cars will be judged on innovation, execution and presentation, and scoring will be as such:

“Presentation” covers things like originality, theme, showmanship, team spirit, moxie, chutzpah, backstory and anything else that falls under the heading of “je ne sais quoi.”"

I consider that about 12 different specific points. Make it clean and shiny, and you might earn some execution or presentation points, but you won't get much for engineering/ innovation.

Etc, etc.

My thought is that only the top half of the Dynamic time finishers need to be judged. Unless your car was built specifically for the concourse. In that case request for it to be judged. (If you are in the bottom half does it really matter if you placed 43 or 46th overall?)

The Judges were clearly exhausted last year with nearly 2 rows of cars left to be judged. Those last two rows probably got a little lower score than they could have.

I'd really like to see concourse reduced from 20% of your score to 10%. At 20% One judge could actually decide the winner by giving slightly lower scores than the average to all but their favorite. (I'm looking at you eBay Judge. I'm Kidding? :-)

In reply to alfadriver:

I get what you are trying to do, and like it in theory, but I think it breaks down in practice.

First off- the point of the event is to create editorial content. The focus of your point system is to build a great car. I know this one is hard for car guys to get their brain around...

I also wonder where you would put something like custom hand-painted graphics. Is it creative respray? Don't think so- it's presentation. How about a full body swap? Major body work? I don't think so- it might not even involve any actual body work. But it certainly creates editorial content!

I do understand what you are trying to do...

They already have the points split up somewhat:

The rules said: Innovation: 0-10 points Execution: 0-10 points Presentation: 0-5 points “Innovation” covers things like design, engineering, creativity and modifications. “Execution” covers things like cleanliness, workmanship and attention to detail. “Presentation” covers things like originality, theme, showmanship, team spirit, moxie, chutzpah, backstory and anything else that falls under the heading of “je ne sais quoi.”

I'm not sure going to more detailed requirements for winning points is a good idea. Then you end up with people checking off a feature list rather than holistically looking at their builds. It's a bummer that the concours is somewhat of the figure skating portion of the Challenge, but attempts to quantify it will quite possibly lead to a homogeneity much like some of the big custom car show awards seem to promote.