In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:
But the goal to get folks focused on reducing the demand on the judges time is the ultimate goal I wanted. I don't want anyone to have a bad time or to be cheated out of what they want or need from the event. But the effort GRM puts into getting judges and the effort the judges put in is the issue. I don't have a solution. I only offered an idea (that wasn't even mine).
In reply to Stampie:
Ties going to the lower budget could make the standard deduction a real hoot.
In reply to wheels777:
Agreed on helping judges...and you are so correct on people having different "needs" from the event. And I understand that. I think you and I are on the same page.
At the end of the day it's about everyone having an enjoyable time.
Ovid_and_Flem wrote: In reply to Stampie: I knew that would come up. Say there was a 5 way tie in self scoring for cutoff to show....tiebreaker would be lowest budget wins.
But what if a team scores themselves a little high in hopes that they don't make the cut off? Do they "win" with lower budget and get scored lower than their strategy move?
Andy Neuman wrote: In reply to Stampie: Slightly offended my beautiful Q45 scored only 2 points more than my throw away Q45.
As you should be. You should be even more PO'ed that you sold such a kick shinny car for $50. Not that I'm complaining.
wheels777 wrote: In reply to Stampie: Ties going to the lower budget could make the standard deduction a real hoot.
It was hard enough figuring things out as it is. I didn't even think about it until someone came up to me in Contours and said they thought I was leading half budget. I looked around real quick and saw Andy. I tried to make it seem real casual when I asked him if he sold his extra wheels but think I gave it away by running off like a little school girl when he said no.
Well at the Westminster Show, they all Line up and the Judge Points out a Dog, uh, car and it goes to the other side of the ring, then we have those Judged by a group of Judges, they know what they want in Print Better than we do. They Photograph the autocross and they Photograph the Drag races, It Could end up 30 cars It could be 50 hell it could be 10. If the Judge/Judges watch the events to some Degree they know what they want to see more of,Everyone not Driving Can stand around and Drink and attempt to Bribe Judges. then Saturday when they are Sober they can say "Oh Krishna what have we Done"
In reply to Stampie:
Solution...give a low budget winner for cars making the "show" and judged by GRM and another for low budget self judged cars. And put it right next to your participant ribbon.
In reply to GTXVette:
I was told, I believe by a judge, that they intentionally don't watch the rest so that they aren't influenced by what happens. That said, I did get asked what I ran in the 1/4 but I think that's because I was talking about the modifications I did to make it better in the 1/4.
In reply to Stampie:
Mothballs in the air box?
In reply to Ovid_and_Flem:
No I pulled some plug wires on a C4. Made it run like E36 M3 but it had been doing that all weekend.
In reply to Stampie:
LOL.
So "Looks Great Runs like Crap" or "Looks Like Crap but Runs Like a GreyHound" Shouldn't be an Influence?, Huh Interesting
Out of curiosity I averaged concours scores for 2016. Drumrolllllllll. ...
AVERAGE SCORE............................................................................13.9
... for whatever it's worth
In reply to GTXVette:
In my case...looked like crap, ran like crap.
But FWIW a car that was in top 5 in concours finished third from last overall due to catastrophic failure in first drag pass....and from appearance they still had a ball.
In reply to wheels777:
Whoops, I didn't mean to ramble on and ignore the original questions...
A standard score option would certainly speed things up and reduce the burden on the judges. I bet that, like other fine points of challenge rules, the arguments about how to determine the value of it would be unending...
No. The historic data is very compelling but the variables are too numerous and great. The chances of a dark horse, outsider or just plain crazy cool E36 M3e are high enough that there should be more flexibility built into the system. Having to earn a spot in the concors makes a lot of sense in general terms but I am not sure that there are not specific exceptions that might arise.
Having competitors opt out is certainly one easy way to streamline the process but it would probably take a significant enticement to make it happen on a useful scale. Voluntary opting in seems to happen much more easily. I'm not sure how to make it both an effective and fair solution.
Probably a good idea and could be a very fun new twist on things. I like the idea of developed subcultures that make their own rules and set unique goals. It might devolve into something that involves rocks, paper, scissors and a bleach box...
Some of these solutions are starting to sound complicated. Reducing the load on the judges might be difficult if everyone is asking them what they are supposed to do.
I think your c4 looked great
In reply to GTXVette:
Pictures are very, very, very flattering. In person it's a piece of E36 M3. But its my piece of E36 M3
Thank you, though.
So, I like the idea of reducing the load on the judges and increasing the face time with the judges, but that doesn't seem possible without short changing some of the competitors. Unless the solution includes spreading out the work load.
Now, if the Concourse is dropped from 20% to 10% of the total score as someone suggested then a lot of the suggestions become more palatable.
Remember, it's not just the top few teams that are looking to the Concourse to solidify or improve their final standing.
Just had another thought. If the Concours ends up being an opt out option, the percentage of ugly entries will probably go up. Entrants who think they won't do great in Concours anyway will have little to no incentive to make their cars presentable. Not sure that'll be great for editorial content.
Here's a suggestion that is extremely simple, and would be very effective.
Anyone who does not want to participate in the Concours portion can completely opt out at registration. Anyone who chooses to opt out will get a $50 discount off their registration, and will not have to submit a full build book. Just a budget sheet.
Scoring would not change. Anyone who opted out entirely of the Concours would probably have a difficult time winning the overall.
Then add awards for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place dynamic score.
Anyone who wants the bragging rights to say he was the fastest (and didn't care about the Concours) would have his trophy to prove himself. The overall award would still be the same. The winner of the overall and the best dynamic time could be the same car.
Done.
Y'all are trying to reinvent the wheel here. A simple incentive to get people to drop out of the Concours is what's needed. If not enough decide to drop out then raise the points until enough do. At some point it might become a strategy thing but not for the top teams. I'm a firm believer in the KISS principle.
even If Ugly Is only Skin Deep..........I Ain't Datin' No Ugly Chicks
In reply to GTXVette:
I'll just say that you've been missing out on some good stuff.
In reply to Stampie:
Amen.
Whatever GRM decides the most reasonable solution I'm sure will be acceptible to most paticipants. Sure some will grumble but there will be those that grumble no matter what you decide.
Whatever you decide I would request that every entry, whether in official concours or not, be required to display in the pavillion. To me that was probably my favorite part of the event where I could see a lot of interesting builds up close in a central location and more importantly meet and talk to fantastic fellow competitors.
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