1 ... 5 6 7 8 9
wheels777
wheels777 SuperDork
7/23/17 6:52 p.m.
Ovid_and_Flem wrote: Whatever GRM decides the most reasonable solution I'm sure will be acceptible to most paticipants. Sure some will grumble but there will be those that grumble no matter what you decide. Whatever you decide I would request that every entry, whether in official concours or not, be required to display in the pavillion. To me that was probably my favorite part of the event where I could see a lot of interesting builds up close in a central location and more importantly meet and talk to fantastic fellow competitors.

it has definitely been a great addition.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Associate Editor
7/24/17 8:57 a.m.

Okay, sorry I'm late to the party here, but as David said we've been busy the past few days, and I also figured it may be wise to let you all duke it out without me for a few rounds.

Also, full disclosure: I called wheels777, not the other way around, to bounce a few concours ideas off of him. He's not the one that wanted to stir this pot.

Anyway, I think based on what I've read here and what I've heard from other competitors, that a "standard deduction" is the way to go.

How would you all feel about being given a choice when you pull your car into the concours pavilion: Score 10 points, or be added to the judges' roster.

Thoughts? And yes, we'd still require you to display your car in the pavilion.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman Dork
7/24/17 9:02 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

When I started coming in 2011 the lowest score was above 10. I'd rather see this portion of the event have less meaning toward the overall score. I prefer when the fastest car wins but I know you want cars with a good story and looks for the magazine.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Associate Editor
7/24/17 9:14 a.m.

Sorry Andy, but at this point a few months out, we're not changing the fundamental mechanics of the event. That's something we can discuss at the town hall this year.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman Dork
7/24/17 9:27 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

I was going to edit my post and offer to go to 12.5 for the basic score. 50% is in no way a good score, it is basically accepting that you failed to make a good looking car and you are willing to accept the 12.5 points for that. This really does accomplish my goal of the fastest car wins because it only leaves 12.5 points on being acceptably prettier than the other cars. Everyone will still need to show up with a pretty car to win but it won't destroy your score if you build a 9 second car that looks like it still belongs in a junk yard.

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/24/17 9:29 a.m.

10 points and I won't take it but give me 13 and I will.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
7/24/17 9:30 a.m.

Devil's advocate says:

Boo hoo my car is slow, can I just take a 17.0 in the drags?

Robbie
Robbie UberDork
7/24/17 9:31 a.m.

It sounds like a tough choice (you are saying we make the choice Saturday morning right?), which probably means it is a good proposal.

Robbie
Robbie UberDork
7/24/17 9:32 a.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: Devil's advocate says: Boo hoo my car is slow, can I just take a 17.0 in the drags?

With a blown engine. But yes, great way to put it.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman Dork
7/24/17 9:42 a.m.
Robbie wrote:
AngryCorvair wrote: Devil's advocate says: Boo hoo my car is slow, can I just take a 17.0 in the drags?
With a blown engine. But yes, great way to put it.

That would have really improved our parking lot Fiero's positioning. A 17 is much better than a 21 running on 5 cylinders.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
7/24/17 9:45 a.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: Devil's advocate says: Boo hoo my car is slow, can I just take a 17.0 in the drags?

I agree, but it misses the point.

The point was to offer an incentive to get people to voluntarily remove their own cars from judging.

No such incentive is being offered to avoid racing.

tb
tb Dork
7/24/17 9:49 a.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Sounds like a step in the right direction.

Ashyukun
Ashyukun GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/24/17 10:04 a.m.

I would think that opting out shouldn't mean the vehicle being excluded from being in the magazine- just that it doesn't require additional scrutiny by the judges. I'm not sure what the best balance of points is to accept for an opt-out.

I know in my case, I've rarely had a vehicle that would be competitive at any of the parts of the competition, so would probably be more likely to opt out of the concours judging to make things easier for the judges. It doesn't mean I'm less likely to spend time making the car look as good as I can, but unless I'm putting forth an exceptional effort in painting it or something really fun theme-wise, or have done something really noteworthy in the engineering/building of the car there wouldn't be as much of a need to worry about having it judged.

Robbie
Robbie UberDork
7/24/17 10:34 a.m.

I'm still a bit uneasy about the standard deduction as a solution. It's like saying "I know I'm not competing for the overall win, so therefore I'll compete in just 2 of the 3 events."

And, it's like grm saying "if you're not building a top notch effort, don't waste our time".

Sorry, but sometimes mid pack finishers like me want to compete with other mid pack finishers. Just like any old autox, the event is not only for the experts.

If I take the standard 'deduction' do I have to include visual or other asthetic mods like paint or vinyl in the budget sheet?

Robbie
Robbie UberDork
7/24/17 10:37 a.m.

One thought I had about this over the weekend:

I think many of us are familiar with autox competition, some of us familiar with drag, and very few with concour. What do 'real' concour events do to handle the problem of many cars that all need to be judged in a short period of time?

Maybe we should be looking to those who do this a lot for help.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Associate Editor
7/24/17 10:41 a.m.

We aren't trying to force anybody to not compete. And everybody is still welcome to go through judging. But this option does give those of you that don't love the concours the chance to avoid dealing with it.

Yes, those who take the standard score still get in the magazine, still budget everything on the car, etc. But they hang out and relax during the concours instead of worrying about being judged.

I'd counter that it's not like saying "I'll only compete in 2 of the 3 events," rather it's an option to say "This part of the event isn't the most fun for me, so I'm going to show my car, but let the pro driver grab me an easy 10 point score while I hang out and check out the rest of the field."

Robbie
Robbie UberDork
7/24/17 10:47 a.m.

So if I ask to have my car judged but am a back marker, or, even worse, end up with a score that is less than the standard score, doesn't that put me in direct violation of the "don't be a dick rule"?

I see both as real undertones of the standard score.

John Welsh
John Welsh MegaDork
7/24/17 10:48 a.m.

I had to review what this meant to me...

$2014: Q45 #1 scored an 18.25 in concourse. This was the year of The DJ, cheerleaders and gold beads.

$2015: Q45 #2 scored a 14 in concourse, the highest scoring Aristocrat in the year of the luxobarges. All other Aristocrats scored:
13.5: BMW V12
12: Lexus LS400
10: Lexus GS400
10: Lincoln Mark 8 and less from there to the others.

$2016: The BRE Van scored a 12 in concourse in the year of the minivans.

Given that, I still would have wanted to score the van. I was considering that in retrospect I might have opt'ed out.

I guess 10 works.
In 2016, 15 cars score less than 10 in concourse. At 5 minutes of judging per car that would have taken 1 hour and 15 minutes off the judge's workload.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
7/24/17 11:12 a.m.

In reply to John Welsh :

Not necessarily. Only if they opted out.

I think the question that has not been asked is, "How many people would opt out?"

Not me.

oldopelguy
oldopelguy UltraDork
7/24/17 11:13 a.m.

I don't think I will ever have the resources to compete with the current crop of front runner drag cars. I might have a chance at a finish above mid-pack in an autocross. Anyone can compete in the concourse.

Devalue the concourse and it might as well just be a drag race.

There's already a standard deduction for not being judged, zero. Same as the time you get for blowing up your engine in the drag or having a wheel fall off in the autocross.

Who does the tech inspection for the autocross? That guy can give the car a 1 to 5 score for innovation. Inspection for the drag gives it a 1-5 for safety and fit and finish. A 1-5 for the back story and such can be done before hand if the build books are submitted two weeks out. Now the judging at the concourse event is a 1 to 5 on overall impression, and that can be quick.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Associate Editor
7/24/17 11:32 a.m.
Robbie wrote: One thought I had about this over the weekend: I think many of us are familiar with autox competition, some of us familiar with drag, and very few with concour. What do 'real' concour events do to handle the problem of many cars that all need to be judged in a short period of time? Maybe we should be looking to those who do this a lot for help.

Unfortunately, there isn't really a direct comparison to the Challenge.

Prestigious concours award class trophies, as well as a best of show. Each class of 5-15 cars has a team of about 4 judges. They choose trophy winners for the class. Then, at the end of judging, head judges from each class sit down and choose a best of show.

Unfortunately, this doesn't work for the Challenge because there's no way with this method to assign a relatively comparable numeric score to each entry on the showfield. We'd only be able to name class winners and best overall, not say that #31 received a 22.83, while #49 received a 22.84.

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Associate Editor
7/24/17 11:35 a.m.

Other concours use a judging sheet with every single thing marked on it: For example, .5 points for the floor mat being free of dirt. 1 point for the mat being original. 1 point for the mat's retaining fasteners being correctly installed (deduct .5 points if they are slate instead of charcoal in color). 1 point for the horn working. 1 point for correct 750 rpm idle speed. 1 point for starter gear mesh noise.

This system would work for the Challenge's need for a numeric score for each entry, but has two problems: How do you score the cleanest stock CRX in the world against a tube-frame beetle with a V8, and how do you find the time to assess each point? That's why this system isn't workable, either.

maschinenbau
maschinenbau GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/24/17 12:01 p.m.

My big station wagon scored a 13.3 last year in concours. It was pretty much stock-appearing other than the Corvette wheels. Looking back, I probably would have just taken the 10 points instead of wasting 5 minutes.

On the other hand, I got to tell my story of the last-minute engine failure and replacement, which I narrowly completed in time for the Challenge. And the fact that I drove it 2,000 miles round trip on an untested junkyard engine. The story is probably why I scored more than 10 points. But I knew I was slow and had no shot at top 10, so I probably would have opted out of concours at the expense of GRM not having those interesting details about my story to put the in magazine. Still not sure how I feel about this solution, but it's good to talk about.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/24/17 12:03 p.m.
Robbie wrote: One thought I had about this over the weekend: I think many of us are familiar with autox competition, some of us familiar with drag, and very few with concour. What do 'real' concour events do to handle the problem of many cars that all need to be judged in a short period of time? Maybe we should be looking to those who do this a lot for help.

I've been lucky to be involved in concours events as both a judge and entrant. Plus, obviously, I cover them when wearing my Classic Motorsports hat. Tim has shown and judged, too--way more than me, in fact.

Most all concours break cars up into classes--figure 8-12 cars per class. Sometimes the classes are wide in scope (race cars) and sometimes they narrow (open-top British sports cars 1960-1969 or Mercedes-Benz 300SL). It kind of depends on the show and what cars they're getting. This year Pinehurst had 14 classes. That sounds like about the right number when you figure that the average concours contains about 200 cars.

Then each class will be judged by a team. At Pinehurst and Hilton Head, we have two judges. Pinehust gives each team a student judge, too. PCA uses bigger judging teams at their national events. Judges are usually matched with the cars/classes that they know (hence why I'll judge race cars or European cars vs. brass era or prewar cars).

When judging, usually we're just looking for a winner and an honorable mention. That's it. Sometimes we have a scoresheet to track things, and sometimes it's just picking the "best" car. What makes a car the best? It's a combination of presentation, story, rarity, condition, etc.

We'll usually have 90 minutes to maybe 2 hours to judge our class, so basically everyone gets 10 minutes or so. Afterward the judges will go over their scores, make sure they're on the same page, and hand them in.

I'll be honest: When we're just looking for one winner, it's usually fairly obvious as soon as we take to the show field. You look at 10 cars, and right away you'll see things that discount a few of them--wrong color, wrong wheels, poor presentation, less pedigree, etc. And at the other end, the top cars usually stand out.

Even so, we visit with everyone and--here's the big thing--thank them for showing their car. This is their chance to be in the spotlight. Even if the car isn't perfect, we don't point out faults. And it could be a rough car with a great story. Let's hear it. I want the entrant to feel relaxed and proud of their car.

At the end of the day, the best in show is then chosen from the class winners. Each judging team usually has a vote.

Andy Neuman
Andy Neuman Dork
7/24/17 12:15 p.m.

Everyone keeps bringing up a lot of good points that makes me question my own thoughts and the way I feel about this portion of the event. Makes me glad I'm not in charge.

I'm bringing a bench, a cooler and a fan for my when my car is being judged.

1 ... 5 6 7 8 9

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
qhJo0SyCBqOVY0K5jR6zjCfa1GdWDI0DInkPQcqav3wLDAlIWzbRJNjKdTP2V7Lb