Knurled. said:Appleseed said:Wait, is the 3 series the 4 doors now, or is that the 4 series? There's no manual option anymore. BMW has me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Is this a bad time to tell you that the majority of Porsches sold are SUVs?
A Porsche badge does not a Porsche make....
02Pilot said:Knurled. said:Appleseed said:Wait, is the 3 series the 4 doors now, or is that the 4 series? There's no manual option anymore. BMW has me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Is this a bad time to tell you that the majority of Porsches sold are SUVs?
A Porsche badge does not a Porsche make....
The original Porsche was a hybrid electric-drive motor,, and it was rear-engined.....
And Porsche would probably not exist any more if not for the car they designed for Volkswagen.....
irish44j said:02Pilot said:Knurled. said:Appleseed said:Wait, is the 3 series the 4 doors now, or is that the 4 series? There's no manual option anymore. BMW has me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Is this a bad time to tell you that the majority of Porsches sold are SUVs?
A Porsche badge does not a Porsche make....
The original Porsche was a hybrid electric-drive motor,, and it was rear-engined.....
And Porsche would probably not exist any more if not for the car they designed for Volkswagen.....
Ah yes, the four wheel hub-motored series hybrid that Dr. Ing. Porsche designed in 1899.
The original Porsche car (the 356) was a nice body on a Type 1 floorpan. The chassis diverged somewhat after that, of course, and then the 914 happened, and then the 924 (the Porsche built with VW running gear and an Audi engine), and then you have things like trucks built with Volkswagen-corporate-identity (VR6) engines....
Porsche purists hated the 911 because it wasn't a 356. It had struts instead of torsion bars up front, and it had a really heavy SIX-cylinder engine out back that was so damned complicated that it needed a dry sump oiling system, unlike the simplicity of the genteel, refined 356C.
Knurled. said:Appleseed said:Wait, is the 3 series the 4 doors now, or is that the 4 series? There's no manual option anymore. BMW has me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Is this a bad time to tell you that the majority of Porsches sold are SUVs?
No. Porsche has never stirred my emotions. Not once. The only Porsche that I found interesting is a tank from WWII.
Ooh, neatness!
The early 356 automobile bodies produced at Gmünd were handcrafted in aluminum, but when production moved to Zuffenhausen, Germany in 1950, models produced there were steel-bodied. The aluminium bodied cars from that very small company are what are now referred to as "prototypes". Porsche contracted Reutter to build the steel bodies and eventually bought the Reutter company in 1963.[7] The Reutter company retained the seat manufacturing part of the business and changed its name to "Recaro".
Appleseed said:Knurled. said:Appleseed said:Wait, is the 3 series the 4 doors now, or is that the 4 series? There's no manual option anymore. BMW has me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Is this a bad time to tell you that the majority of Porsches sold are SUVs?
No. Porsche has never stirred my emotions. Not once. The only Porsche that I found interesting is a tank from WWII.
It's curious - I drove my uncle's late-80s 911 turbo years ago and can't say I really enjoyed it at all. nor have I been in love with driving a few more modern rear-engined Porsches (I have not driven a Cayman, however). But my 924S is, by far of every car I've ever owned, the one I enjoy driving the most. Everything about the way it drives is pretty much perfect (excepting the 70s-80s interior) from the perfect-weight steering to the perfectly-placed pedals to the amazing weight balance. I've owned a number of cars that are twice as powerful or twice as fast on a track and none of them had that feeling.
Knurled. said:Appleseed said:Wait, is the 3 series the 4 doors now, or is that the 4 series? There's no manual option anymore. BMW has me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
Is this a bad time to tell you that the majority of Porsches sold are SUVs?
And not just SUVs... Audi SUVs! 
irish44j said:"Initial 0-60 times are in the 5.6 second range, which is a tick faster than a V6 Toyota Camry."
Ah yes, the Camry. The benchmark upon which all performance cars are based.
That's the part which caught my attention. Another one: the only engine choice in the 2019 Ford Ranger mid-size pickup truck will be a variant of the EcoBoost 2.3, which is technically similar and higher in output than this BMW engine (with only 15% more displacement). Yes, the base engine in a cheap pickup truck. It's hard to see what that BMW purchase price is buying.
I'm cool with the 8 speed auto. My wife's 335i has the 6 speed auto and it's pretty decent. I like that they are making it lighter. Realistically though I'd have an M2 or an E92 M3 instead.
Harvey said:I'm cool with the 8 speed auto. My wife's 335i has the 6 speed auto and it's pretty decent. I like that they are making it lighter. Realistically though I'd have an M2 or an E92 M3 instead.
I mean, in a nod to being a "sports sedan" one would have thought that BMW would at least put a DCT in the 3-series and not a slushbox. Hell, even inexpensive things like the GTI get a DCT....Perhaps it's not a true performance upgrade over a standard automatic, but at least it would allow the 3-series to still call itself a "sports sedan" to some degree.
Hmmm... went to compare an ATS 2.0t, but it appears Cadillac only makes them as Coupes now, no Sedan any more.
irish44j said:Harvey said:I'm cool with the 8 speed auto. My wife's 335i has the 6 speed auto and it's pretty decent. I like that they are making it lighter. Realistically though I'd have an M2 or an E92 M3 instead.
I mean, in a nod to being a "sports sedan" one would have thought that BMW would at least put a DCT in the 3-series and not a slushbox. Hell, even inexpensive things like the GTI get a DCT....Perhaps it's not a true performance upgrade over a standard automatic, but at least it would allow the 3-series to still call itself a "sports sedan" to some degree.
It's because the DCT's aren't a great a daily driver gearbox. The 1 series was the last non-M car that got one.
They are amazing when you are trying to go rapidly though. And the new ZF gearboxes shift nearly as fast (we are talking milliseconds) and are smoother in DD use.
z31maniac said:It's because the DCT's aren't a great a daily driver gearbox. The 1 series was the last non-M car that got one.
They are amazing when you are trying to go rapidly though. And the new ZF gearboxes shift nearly as fast (we are talking milliseconds) and are smoother in DD use.
Agreed. In anything short of outright racing, I'd rather have a regular auto. In traffic, a lot of DCTs give me the feeling of driving a manual, but the guy in the passenger seat has the clutch pedal. Plus, turbos and torque converters are very good friends from a performance perspective.
z31maniac said:irish44j said:Harvey said:I'm cool with the 8 speed auto. My wife's 335i has the 6 speed auto and it's pretty decent. I like that they are making it lighter. Realistically though I'd have an M2 or an E92 M3 instead.
I mean, in a nod to being a "sports sedan" one would have thought that BMW would at least put a DCT in the 3-series and not a slushbox. Hell, even inexpensive things like the GTI get a DCT....Perhaps it's not a true performance upgrade over a standard automatic, but at least it would allow the 3-series to still call itself a "sports sedan" to some degree.
It's because the DCT's aren't a great a daily driver gearbox. The 1 series was the last non-M car that got one.
They are amazing when you are trying to go rapidly though. And the new ZF gearboxes shift nearly as fast (we are talking milliseconds) and are smoother in DD use.
interesting, shows what I know lol...
Then again, I didn't even bother with the DCT when I went shopping for my GTI last month. Three pedals from the start!
I've not driven a DCT, but I've heard the same from friends that have had them. The performance is great if you are hauling ass, but around town it's annoying. One friend had the E60 M5 with the V10 and DCT and that DCT was a big pain point for him. Made him not want to drive the car for casual trips around town.
Each iteration seems to get less annoying, but at this point the regular autos have caught back up in terms of shifting speed as well as offering a better overall driving experience.
So other than the first digit of 330. The other two are meaningless. Unfortunately Mercs have suffered the same fate as the S550 for 2017 only has a 4.7 Motor in it. And because they propagated the bigger number is better game on there cars they can not call it the 320. They could call it the 320itt. Now that would be a cool nod to the past.
Harvey said:One friend had the E60 M5 with the V10 and DCT and that DCT was a big pain point for him. Made him not want to drive the car for casual trips around town.
That's because your friend had the SMG and not a DCT. It's a single conventional dry clutch, just like in a traditional manual transmission except operated electro-hydraulically, rather than a dual (typically wet) clutch system.
I have not lived with a DCT for an extended period of time, but the time I have spent driving them on the street was certainly not any more annoying to me than a conventional automatic. The points of minor 'annoyance' due to their inherent characteristics are merely different between the two. In either case, I find that pretty much any time there is something substantially annoying it's primarily the fault of the manufacturer and their tuning of the system, rather than anything inherent to the style of transmission.
Driven5 said:Harvey said:One friend had the E60 M5 with the V10 and DCT and that DCT was a big pain point for him. Made him not want to drive the car for casual trips around town.
That's because your friend had the SMG and not a DCT. It's a single conventional dry clutch, just like in a traditional manual transmission except operated electro-hydraulically, rather than a dual (typically wet) clutch system.
I have not lived with a DCT for an extended period of time, but the time I have spent driving them on the street was certainly not any more annoying to me than a conventional automatic. The points of minor 'annoyance' due to their inherent characteristics are merely different between the two. In either case, I find that pretty much any time there is something substantially annoying it's primarily the fault of the manufacturer and their tuning of the system, rather than anything inherent to the style of transmission.
Ah see, you're right. I mixed up the two. All of the complaints I've heard were for SMG transmissions.
rslifkin said:z31maniac said:It's because the DCT's aren't a great a daily driver gearbox. The 1 series was the last non-M car that got one.
They are amazing when you are trying to go rapidly though. And the new ZF gearboxes shift nearly as fast (we are talking milliseconds) and are smoother in DD use.Agreed. In anything short of outright racing, I'd rather have a regular auto. In traffic, a lot of DCTs give me the feeling of driving a manual, but the guy in the passenger seat has the clutch pedal. Plus, turbos and torque converters are very good friends from a performance perspective.
I actually really liked the last DCT car I drove, though it was an Audi Q3 rental I had in Italy, not the BMW box. It seemed like they addressed all the issues I had with the earlier dual clutch transmissions--its was silky smooth taking off, and the paddles responded instantly. The tune was a bit lazy a fuel economy focused, but a quick double tap of the paddle had me in 5th in a half second and ready to take an exit ramp.
Wit that said, I think the BMW DCT is an older design and I've never driven one. I'd really like to though, since the Q3 was completely and totally disappointing from a dynamic standpoint and I trust BMW way more to build a nicely handling car.
Yeah, the DCT in my 135 is essentially 13-14 year old technology at this point.
I'd like to drive a new DCT in one of the M cars, or a new Audi TT. But if I do that, I suspect I'll be looking into selling a kidney on the black market so I can buy one.
Oh I also wanted to point out, that if you put the car full manual mode, (DCT lever kicked over to the left and you've pressed the "Sport" button behind the lever), it takes care of 99% of the wonky lurch/shudder/slow response from the DCT.
But the whole point was, I'm sitting in traffic, I don't want to keep paying attention to the gear.
With the windows up and the HK stereo going you can't hear the engine, and the tq is everywhere so always pulls strong, unless you have it full throttle up near the top of the rev range................which you can't really do in heavy traffic.
I don't see the point in SCT's these days. Modern auto's are so good what's the point in the extra complexity of a DCT especially when it comes with the clutches, hydraulics atc. For anything other than an all out supercar, I"d rather have a 'rea' auto.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
As much as I love the idea of DCT's, from primarily a maintenance perspective I would tend to agree with you. However, from a functional implementation standpoint, the good DCT's all connect the driver to the car like a manual when in manual/sport mode. Meanwhile, I have only ever driven one conventional auto that was actually setup to lock the torque converter correctly when in manual/sport mode, in order to actually make the driver feel more directly connected to the car and live up to it's title. Until they all start figuring out that the feeling of a rubber band between the engine and transmission when trying to 'dance' with the car is a decidedly un-sporty one, there will always be a place for DCT among people who actually care about the feel of the driving experience under more conditions than just a romp of the gas pedal. But once they finally do, it'll be 'game over'.
In reply to Driven5 :
I totally agree with what you're saying, but it proves that a modern auto can be as good as a DCT, that they aren't is more to do with decisions made about how to program the torque convertor lock up etc. There's no reason I can think of that you couldn't make a true auto feel the same as a DCT with less real world complexity. The problem is it really doesn't matter to OEM's. They are building cars to sell or lease new to owners who will keep them for 1-4 years, during which time it's unlikely you will need to service or replaces the clutch(es) in a DCT or run into issues wil solenoids, hydraulics etc. failing and needing service. That expensive or time consuming issue is passed down to owner 2-3-4 etc. And right now 'DCT' has far more marketing cache than 'automatic'
^As mentioned though, BMW no longer uses them in non-M cars. Audi and VW and the supercars use them.
Outside of that, I think they are already falling out of favor. Everyone is going to the ZF 8 speed for the most part.
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