z31maniac said:I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!
it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car?
Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six.
I just looked at the 2020 Z4, that front end is yuck! The Cayman S manual starting at $69k Gah! I wonder how much the 2014/2015 S's are going for
Brett_Murphy said:z31maniac said:I'M MAD ABOUT A CAR I WAS NEVER GOING TO BUY!!!!!!
it would take HUNDREDS of MILLIONS of dollars for Toyota to design a brand new engine, for a sports car that is going not going to sell very much. Roll that engine development into the price of the car?
Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six.
And? They decided having a straight six was a requirement, so instead of spending a huge chunk developing a new one, they went to best in the biz. If so many are pissed about a BMW I6, imagine the hate if it was a hybrid turbo I4?
Cotton said:MichaelYount said:In reply to JG Pasterjak :
1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW. Nothing new to see here.
Toyota lost their way long before BMW imo. I mean they killed the Supra in 98, then the next sports car they come out with is Subaru powered 15 years later? I can get more excited about a BMW drivetrain in it than another Subaru.
MR2 Spyder? That's most definitely a sports car, and was around until 2005.
It appears to be a pretty awesome car!
I agree that the negativity in this thread is rather high. The car has a lot going for it! It's not perfect, but nothing is. It's not like the release of an all new, non-exotic, smaller 2-seater sports car is a common thing. Thinking back over the last say 15 years, you have this, the twins and umm... Do the Alpine A110 and Alpha 4C count as non-exotic? Cars like this are key to keeping our shared hobbies and interests alive.
Also, who cares if it doesn't have "Toyota DNA." Why does that matter? Brands and names are for marketing purposes. It's one thing to turn an Eclipse into a crossover, it's another complain about a great new sports car in the same vein as the originals, same engine type/layout, etc.
In reply to z31maniac :
So you're outraged over people's outrage? Poking a bit of fun, but it does seem like a bit of a pot and kettle situation. It's simply a fact of life that you can't please everyone, but my point was to simply say that not all the criticism is illegitimate. Obviously you like the car and none of the controversial decisions have swayed you from that position, but just because you aren't bothered doesn't mean other people don't have the right to be.
I think you're right when it comes to the point about just appreciating the cool stuff that is out there, but this is a car forum after all and arguing is a big part of any enthusiast community...
HapDL said:Possibly the ugliest car ever designed.
I was going comment that there is not a good angle to shoot that car from.
This is the Z4 in drag? I think I would rather have the Z4M
In reply to z31maniac :
1) Not true. Probably not safe to assume people's financial situations on an internet forum. Just because it says Grassroots on top left doesn't mean everyone here can't afford a nice new car.
2) Even if it's someone who will not buy it new, these cars will become used cars, and at some point it becomes accessible to a much wider audience.
3) Is it a better strategy to have a potentially mediocre car that has mediocre sales vs. one with a more expensive car that might have better sales? PLus, how much of the profit margin is going to BMW vs. Toyota? I don't know the answer to any of these questions, but I don't think it's as clear as you seem to think.
Edit: scratch out #1 and #2. I read it one way, and apparently that was not the intent. Got it, apologies. If the meaning was about not having intent to buy, I'd argue you're wrong for a diff reason. Supras were the reason why i got into modding cars period. I rode in one that was a BPU and the driver was racing Vipers on highways on that particular saturday night, and I was hooked. No doubt plenty of people got interested in the car due to F&F. So I think plenty of people would be interested in the car if it was what they wanted. Do you really think that people complaining about the car not having a manual is an outrageous reaction from a dedicated car forum? What about folks who do not want to deal with BMW service costs and reliability issues? You may disagree with them as they might not be issues you care about, but they're hardly controversial perspectives.
It's also a little odd defending an automobile manufacturer (esp the biggest one) choosing not to manufacture an automobile. There may be good business reasons for it but that doesn't make it any less lame.
Snrub said:It appears to be a pretty awesome car!
I agree that the negativity in this thread is rather high. The car has a lot going for it! It's not perfect, but nothing is. It's not like the release of an all new, non-exotic, smaller 2-seater sports car is a common thing. Thinking back over the last say 15 years, you have this, the twins and umm... Do the Alpine A110 and Alpha 4C count as non-exotic? Cars like this are key to keeping our shared hobbies and interests alive.Also, who cares if it doesn't have "Toyota DNA." Why does that matter? Brands and names are for marketing purposes. It's one thing to turn an Eclipse into a crossover, it's another complain about a great new sports car in the same vein as the originals, same engine type/layout, etc.
This guy, he gets it.
dculberson said:Cotton said:MichaelYount said:In reply to JG Pasterjak :
1) For my taste and car enjoyment, BMW have lost their way big time starting a good decade ago; 2) I was hoping Toyota would actually build/engineer a new car -- so, it's not a "Supra" - it's a BMW. Nothing new to see here.
Toyota lost their way long before BMW imo. I mean they killed the Supra in 98, then the next sports car they come out with is Subaru powered 15 years later? I can get more excited about a BMW drivetrain in it than another Subaru.
MR2 Spyder? That's most definitely a sports car, and was around until 2005.
True, I forgot about that one.
This car is a solid "Meh" for me. I like the way it looks but let's get real, it's a BMW Z4. Engine, transmission, interior = Z4. It doesn't even make the 380hp you can get in the Z4.
Ok, so Toyota tuned the suspension. Yawn. So we've got a nice looking car that's going to have BMW reliability, getting worked on at the Toyota dealer/techs who have no experience working on it.
Brett_Murphy said:
Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six.
On the alternate timeline where Toyota used a turbo 4 in the Supra, this thread is equally as bitchy if not moreso than it currently is.
mad_machine said:HapDL said:Possibly the ugliest car ever designed.
I was going comment that there is not a good angle to shoot that car from.
This is the Z4 in drag? I think I would rather have the Z4M
Orbiting around the car, you find that there are a few angles where the thing is just drop-dead gorgeous. Then you move 1-degree away from that and it gets weird again. Any angle that evokes Viper-ness is solid. Dead profile and rear 3/4 are absolutely beautiful.
docwyte said:This car is a solid "Meh" for me. I like the way it looks but let's get real, it's a BMW Z4. Engine, transmission, interior = Z4. It doesn't even make the 380hp you can get in the Z4.
Ok, so Toyota tuned the suspension. Yawn. So we've got a nice looking car that's going to have BMW reliability, getting worked on at the Toyota dealer/techs who have no experience working on it.
Let's not act like changing a leaking oil pan or valve cover.....or water pump.....is significantly different between the marques of well any car.
JG Pasterjak said:Brett_Murphy said:
Toyota has engines they could use now. Granted, it wouldn't be an inline six, but you know what? A modern Supra wasn't required to have an inline six.
On the alternate timeline where Toyota used a turbo 4 in the Supra, this thread is equally as bitchy if not moreso than it currently is.
It's almost like I said that further up the page. :)
Look I get that not everyone likes, loves, etc, the car. I'm with JG that side, 3/4 view is achingly gorgeous, the front is still a bit weird for me. But it's growing on me. Even if it takes collaboration, I'm glad cars like this are still being built.
Look at the twins, the only difference they had was the headlights and taillights, and some are complaining that the Zupra is just a rebodied Z4. So what? It's a much better looking car.
And I'll bet you a beer and a onion burner from Robert's in Enid, OK (the best there is in the world), that the only reason Toyota downtuned the engine was to make it sweeter for the tuners and keep that alive.
In reply to Snrub :
I think the context is important. As a self proclaimed japanese car fan boy I've been incredibly impressed by what GM has done with Camaro over the past few years. Track spec options + warranty on track? For $30k new car and the same weight as the Supra?! So while it's not a bad car on an absolute basis the competition has improved quite a bit (not suggesting Camaro is the direct competitor, just an example).
z31maniac said:Look I get that not everyone likes, loves, etc, the car. I'm with JG that side, 3/4 view is achingly gorgeous, the front is still a bit weird for me. But it's growing on me. Even if it takes collaboration, I'm glad cars like this are still being built.
Look at the twins, the only difference they had was the headlights and taillights, and some are complaining that the Zupra is just a rebodied Z4. So what? It's a much better looking car.
At the risk of putting words in people's mouths, I don't think anyone HATES this car. I doubt anyone seriously thinks it will be a bad car. I like the new Z4 and I'd never get a convertible, so effectively a Z4 coupe is a good option to consider. I think the so what is the name. Called anything else (edit: Celica?) it would be much better received. But the fact that it's just a decent sports car made by an unrelated manufacturer (and not even their top of the line like an M4), carrying the name is rubbing people the wrong way. Every other manufacturer put in the big bucks to engineer and tool up to produce a modern follow up to their halo cars (GTR, NSX, Ford GT...). Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA. Or maybe only I did.
BigD said:Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA.
Isn't a front-engined LFA just a... LFA?
Javelin said:BigD said:Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA.
Isn't a front-engined LFA just a... LFA?
D'OH... I seriously thought they're mid engined this whole time.
BigD said:z31maniac said:Look I get that not everyone likes, loves, etc, the car. I'm with JG that side, 3/4 view is achingly gorgeous, the front is still a bit weird for me. But it's growing on me. Even if it takes collaboration, I'm glad cars like this are still being built.
Look at the twins, the only difference they had was the headlights and taillights, and some are complaining that the Zupra is just a rebodied Z4. So what? It's a much better looking car.
At the risk of putting words in people's mouths, I don't think anyone HATES this car. I doubt anyone seriously thinks it will be a bad car. I like the new Z4 and I'd never get a convertible, so effectively a Z4 coupe is a good option to consider. I think the so what is the name. Called anything else (edit: Celica?) it would be much better received. But the fact that it's just a decent sports car made by an unrelated manufacturer (and not even their top of the line like an M4), carrying the name is rubbing people the wrong way. Every other manufacturer put in the big bucks to engineer and tool up to produce a modern follow up to their halo cars (GTR, NSX, Ford GT...). Maybe the bar was set high but I think people expected something closer to a front-engined LFA. Or maybe only I did.
I'm not sure it's fair to compare a $50k car, to ones that cost more than double. Even when you adjust for inflation the current Zupra is markedly cheaper than if you tried to buy a TT Supra in 1997.
A GTR starts at $100k.
An NSX starts at $158k.
And the Ford GT was around $500k, if you were able to buy one new.
An M4 starts at $70k. An M5 starts at $103k!
bcp2011 said:In reply to Snrub :
I think the context is important. As a self proclaimed japanese car fan boy I've been incredibly impressed by what GM has done with Camaro over the past few years. Track spec options + warranty on track? For $30k new car and the same weight as the Supra?! So while it's not a bad car on an absolute basis the competition has improved quite a bit (not suggesting Camaro is the direct competitor, just an example).
FWIW, a short wheelbase, two seat Camaro at a current Camaro price point would be awesome.
nderwater said:FWIW, a short wheelbase, two seat Camaro at a current Camaro price point would be awesome.
I assume 2+2 isn't a deal breaker to most people (it only adds to flexibility), so is the short wheel base that desirable when other factors like track ready brakes and reasonable weight are checked off (serious question)?
bcp2011 said:nderwater said:FWIW, a short wheelbase, two seat Camaro at a current Camaro price point would be awesome.
I assume 2+2 isn't a deal breaker to most people (it only adds to flexibility), so is the short wheel base that desirable when other factors like track ready brakes and reasonable weight are checked off (serious question)?
I think the Camaro is a serious performance value. IMO a 4 door at current prices (ish) would be amazing, or 7/8 scale at current prices would be amazing (but not for me... currently).
In reply to ProDarwin :
But the existing product isn't amazing? Don't get me wrong, I have a twin, so I appreciate the car for what it is, but that's more in regard to the weight, rather than the wheelbase. Is the Camaro's wheelbase that big of a hinderance performance wise (I would think maybe it's not great for autox but better for tracks?)?
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