2021 Ford Bronco

Last night Ford unveiled the new 2021 Ford Bronco. Seems to be a pretty big deal for Ford and they are likely to sell thousands, if not tens of thousands. All directly aimed at stealing market share from the Wrangler. 

It looks to be offered in 2 and 4 door, with a plethora of options. If even is can be specced with a 6+1 manual transmission. I.e. a regular 6 speed with a granny gear, or a 10 speed auto. 2.3 ecoboost 4 cyl and 2.7 turbo v6 will be the initial drivetrains. 

I know that I live in a town with lots of young professionals and this will be the new hot ticket to showing everyone how ruggedley outdoorsy you are while being able to grow that sweet mercenary beard. You can even get it with actual bead lock rims and MT tires from the factory.

https://media.ford.com/content/fordmedia/fna/us/en/news/2020/07/13/all-new-2021-bronco-two-door-and-first-ever-four-door-models.html#:~:text=DEARBORN%2C%20Mich.%2C%20July%2013,of%20rugged%20off%2Droad%20vehicles.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/latest-on-the-bronco/174668/page4/

I need lots of people to buy them with a manual transmission and the Sasquatch package so I can get one after they depreciate.

Manual only with the tightly wound 2.3l. If you want the 2.7 you gotta go with the 10spd auto. 

My thoughts (not a fan) are in the previously linked thread so no sense in being negative in the hype thread. Pricing seems to jump pretty quick if you want a particular color or for the mall cruiser (sasquatch) package. I expect to see a lot of these blinding me through my mirrors.

Error404 said:

I expect to see a lot of these blinding me through my mirrors.

I thought that there were minimum and maximum light heights. What's up with that?

I have a stock height GTI and Foxbody, late model trucks, SUVs, and Jeeps often have lights at or near a seated eye level. It's worse that they're LEDs because their F250 Super Duty Quad Cab minivan is compensating for poor headlight placement with raw lumens.

On subject: I have a personal hatred of push button start and infotainment, especially when it takes center stage. 

Remember, you can’t spell Bronco without ‘Bro’.  

Has anyone brought up the axles in this thread yet?

Not something I will purchase  but I think it is really cool that they are making it. 

In reply to dean1484 :

I'm somewhat interested in the 2-dr but push button start and infotainment are on my personal no-no list. Now, if they'd sell me one without the fluff I might seriously consider it. If they'd step up to the plate and put the V6 in front of the manual I'd be more interested but not with infotainment, I have no interest in buying outdated electronic fluff. Statistically that probably has a 0% chance of ever happening. 

Who would I email to check with, though?

In reply to Error404 :

I'm pretty sure that there is a Federal requirement for all new cars and light trucks to have a back-up camera system.  So, that is going to mean that they all have a screen on the dash.  

Error404 said:

In reply to dean1484 :

I'm somewhat interested in the 2-dr but push button start and infotainment are on my personal no-no list. Now, if they'd sell me one without the fluff I might seriously consider it. If they'd step up to the plate and put the V6 in front of the manual I'd be more interested but not with infotainment, I have no interest in buying outdated electronic fluff. Statistically that probably has a 0% chance of ever happening. 

Who would I email to check with, though?

What's wrong with push button start? It works for a 1962 Lotus 7 :) But more seriously, the engine computer knows how to start the engine better than you do. Tell it you want the engine to run and it'll take things from there. There are a bunch of cars that have been the equivalent of "push button start" for years and you had no idea - the first generation Toyota Tundra, for example. Sure, you turned a key but that key told the engine computer to start the engine. You didn't have to hold the key to crank, you just had to bounce it over to the Start position and release. It wasn't physically a button but it was indistinguishable.

Infotainment is here to stay, it's just a radio that's grown up. 

I know they have to have a display for the back up camera, silly but whatever, but I'd like that on the visor or something. That's not gonna happen and I can get past that, probably with the use of an attractive, blank cover. I like my cabins dark at night so I can see something other than the screens. 

I don't like extraneous electronics, what was wrong with a keyed ignition? I like turning a key. Still, what I really don't like is the fob. In my cars the key goes in the ignition and that's where it stays, when I drive my gf's Focus I never know where to put the dadgum fob. I don't even leave my phone in my pocket so I definitely don't want some oversized RFID chip jabbing me in places while I'm trying to enjoy a drive. (Not that I enjoy the numbing experience of driving the Focus.) Or the fob sliding under seats or into the nameless void with my unmatched socks. 

As for infotainment, it's just a feature that I don't want. All I really want on the dash are the radio, clock, and hvac, if you want to give me deeper access there are cleaner places to put the interface, IMO, than to slap a unique module smackdab in the middle of my dash.  *(Tried to merge paragraphs and the font changed)

​​Btw, I don't expect any car company to actually do this when the resolution on their infotainment screen is a selling point that improves market share or whatever. It's also one reason that I don't expect to ever buy a new car when they won't make what I want. It bums me out when I think about future me needing/wanting another vehicle and seeing stuff that's kinda cool but has to come with unattractive features. Oh well....  /Gripe session

What the "extraneous electronics" in the starting system have done is put full control into the hands of the thing that actually has all the information. The dumb meatsack twisting a key is unreliable and can't be trusted to do the right thing. So you let the meatsack request an engine start, then the electronics do the rest and do it correctly.

RFID chips can be tiny. Heck, the key for a Tesla is exactly the size of a credit card. They're made bigger so you don't lose them! The ones used by a lot of automakers are not far off the size of a key, but without the metal spear to stab you. So it's the design choices made by the automaker about fob size you don't like.

The term you're looking for in infotainment is "glass cockpit". Aviation figured it out years ago. It's only just coming to cars now. Look at the stacks of buttons in a turn-of-the-century car, they're expensive and complex and often have multiple uses just to try to make it all work. The one big screen is actually a step up in terms of reliability (well, points of failure anyhow) and interface design. As long as you have a couple of buttons for the stuff that needs to be done without looking.

And none of those things are what I want. This dumb meatsack usually manages to start engines without catastrophic failure. I'm not trying to say you're wrong, I like to think both of our likes could coexist in the automotive world while providing cars that are safer than 40yrs ago. I think Ford, and the others, are telling me that they can't and I don't like that. That's all a "me" thing that I'll have to deal with at some point but it takes a lot of enjoyment out of looking at cool cars for future me when the message is that what I want is wrong. 

I do understand that options are extra work, hence the upcharge for them. I don't know why it's so much to ask to want the infotainment optioned out; slap a screen there to display the backup video and you just saved the cost of an infotainment unit. I do know I'll never win the keyed ignition fight, that ship has sadly sailed in the name of feature creep.

You like a keyed ignition (even if it's really just a button pretending to be a key, like a 20-year-old Toyota) because that's how things were back in the day when you first bonded with cars. But not TOO far back in the day, because then we're back to buttons like my 1967 Land Rover :) And with some sort of RFID added in for anti-theft. So the keyed ignition is actually the complex, feature-creeped, expensive option that relies on failure prone mechanical parts. 

I didn't explain myself clearly on the infotainment, apparently. HVAC controls are a PITA to engineer. It's all controlled by the computers anyhow, since they're a lot less expensive to build and more reliable than cables running to levers sticking out of the dash. So why not get rid of the buttons that are telling the computers to do things and just put it on the screen that you have there anyway? Makes for a cleaner interior design, more reliability and (if done well) improved user interface?

I can operate my old cable HVAC  and stereo with buttons and knobs without ever taking my eyes off the road.  These touchscreens are downright dangerous.  I'm very thankful that my FR-S has a volume knob and old school HVAC controls.  I still have to look at the touchscreen to change channels but that's better than most newer cars I've seen.  The next newest vehicle in my fleet is from 1998 so it's a non-issue.  I am glad to see Ford offering this with a manual transmission.  The reason I have a 1998 4Runner is that they were not offered with a manual after 2000.

If you want old manual tech, buy an old car. But don't expect there to be enough people who want them that companies will build and sell them new. 

I can drive operate the functions in my mustang or gti without having to take my eyes off the road for more than a bare glance. Touchscreens do not belong within arms reach of a driver.  

I like a keyed ignition for 2 reasons, 1) keys in the column, not floating around or stuck in my pocket and 2) tactile feel. You're right that, when I bonded with cars, they had proper keyed ignitions and I like that and it's personal preference. I get that. But I also like knowing exactly where my keys are, being able to crank the car without sitting in the seat, and that I feel like I have more control in an automotive world that is striving to remove me from the equation. 

Why do I need a computer to manage hvac in a car? It's one more expensive thing to fail if it gets wet or if voltage spikes. 

To stay on topic, one thing I like about the new Bronco is that they put those buttons and knobs back where they belong. That they still felt the need to make infotainment standard, though, loses me. 

Keith Tanner said:As long as you have a couple of buttons for the stuff that needs to be done without looking.

That is the gripe I sometimes have with excessive reliance on touch screens - their designers don't always see eye to eye with me on what needs to be done without looking. I'd like the fan and temperature controls to be physical buttons I could work without looking down, for example.

As for why to have a processor tie in to the HVAC? A couple things you can implement include using a thermostat to target a specific temperature, letting the ECU know to expect more load from the compressor, and conversely, letting the ECU shut off the A/C compressor at full throttle or high RPM to avoid overspinning your compressor. You could also blip the A/C compressor once every two weeks if it hasn't been cycled to keep the seals from seizing up.

The HVAC also takes exterior temp into account. We found that when we tried to hijack the exterior temp display on the ND Miata to show oil temp and the HVAC completely freaked out and tried to save the human when the outside temp hit 200F :)

It's possible to have touchscreen controls that stay put. I do have an example of a notoriously touchscreen-focused car in my garage, and stuff like the HVAC controls are permanently positioned. One touch changes the temp, another cuts the fan off. No sub-menus, no hunting around. It's always right there in the bottom center of the screen. Want to change the volume? It's a roller on the wheel, basically the exact same interface as our decidedly old-school 20 year old Grand Cherokee.

Meanwhile, my E39 has a stack of buttons that are basically exactly the same. One button always in the same place to change the temp. The actual interaction is identical. The only difference is that one button is a picture and one is not. Heck, my 1985 Honda requires you to push a button to change the vent location. We're complaining about something that's found in a 35 year old economy car.

There's no question that it's possible to get the interface design wrong. That's true of physical controls as well. But that's not the fault of the physical or digital controls. That's the fault of the UI team.

As for knowing where your keys are - that's only important if you actually need to interact with those keys to drive the car. One of my cars has a phone key. As long as I have my phone, I can drive the car. Knowing where my keys are is irrelevant.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

the capacitive touch E36 m3 that is my Avalon Hybrids controls are a horrid example of the way some systems are though.

I can feel a button.  I cannot feel a symbol on a touchscreen.  I might be able to hit the right spot on a touchscreen without looking.  I can feel the edges of a button and know that I'm in the right spot.  The FR-S has rotary dials for the HVAC.  One for temp and one with detents for fan speed.  And a button for A/C.  Praise Jesus.

Yeah, and the wiring in my wife's old Grand Cherokee is an example of how crappy aging buttons can be. Is it cold outside? Good, then you can change the settings on the overhead display. Is it warm? Sorry, that button is not currently available...

There are good and bad examples of each. Heck, ask GM how wrong a physical ignition switch can go. But that's not a reflection of the underlying tech, just a particular implementation. I do think that the biggest problems come from half-hearted implementations. Want to go glass cockpit? Then go all the way and use a BIG HIGH QUALITY screen and design the interior around it. Don't stick an iPod Mini on the dashboard and give it a few jobs while scattering buttons all over the place - looking at you, Mazda...

parker said:

I can feel a button.  I cannot feel a symbol on a touchscreen.  I might be able to hit the right spot on a touchscreen without looking.  I can feel the edges of a button and know that I'm in the right spot.  The FR-S has rotary dials for the HVAC.  One for temp and one with detents for fan speed.  And a button for A/C.  Praise Jesus.

The thing is, people look. Even if they don't think they do, they look. One of our GRM members did some human interface design for...Honda?...and that's what their studies said IIRC. A button in the middle of a screen with no landmarks is a problem. A button along one edge where you have landmarks is different.

And with automatic temperature control HVAC, why are you screwing around with the controls anyhow? Are you my wife? ;)