Cool. This all sounds so ridiculously feasible, I have no reason not to enter in 2012. Next step: round up the crew, drink beers, and scour craigslist for the craziest bucket of tin we can find for $500. 
Cool. This all sounds so ridiculously feasible, I have no reason not to enter in 2012. Next step: round up the crew, drink beers, and scour craigslist for the craziest bucket of tin we can find for $500.
I think $8k is about what I spent last year to build my first car (GTX #2; GTX #1 was just a buy & drive), but that included my rental warehouse space in Oakland and the cost of getting from CA to FL (edit: and the initial outlay for tools, since I had almost nothing...)
Don't forget the extraneous expenses, such as fluids that power the teammates/minions. I think I spent $600 on beer in two months, and I'm pretty sure I got off cheap. :D
DILYSI Dave wrote:AngryCorvair wrote: in this circumstance, DILYSI Dave is wrong.Point to a rule. :) It's been a while since I read the challenge rules, but that's not the way it was last time I built a car.
it's not specifically called out in a rule. you. SCCA. douche. 
however, he bought the car with a good transmission for X dollars as the starting point for a challenge car. then he went out and broke the transmission in daily driving. replacing the transmission merely restores the car to the condition it was in when he paid X dollars for it, and (IMO) the starting point for his challenge budget says "Car*: X dollars".
*could be used to footnote "with good used transmission"
I don't agree:
Car, with transmission: $1500 (for example).
Spare transmission: $100.
Car asplode transmission, put in the spare: $1600.
Now, if you bought the car sans transmission for $1400, and two transmissions for $100 each, you could swap them out before the event for no added cost ($1500).
Now, if you wanted to play Challenge Math (tm), and your DD had a weak transmission, you could adjust the FMV to include that, thus affording you a replacement. Also an option, pre-swapping the transmission and adjusting the FMV up (which may or may not be greater than the cost of the transmission). FMV for already owned cars start once you say "this will be my Challenge car." Or you could sell the bad transmission and use that recoup to buy another one.
Let's say purchase price was $900 in this case. (it was)
$900 gets car with working transmission. Working used transmission = $500.
Car + working transmission = $900
$400 + $500 = $900
Car asplodes transmission at the way home today. I am in Indy, and therefor not a the challenge. I buy another $500 transmission and swap it in. (crusty used stock transmission).
$900.
The point Angry is making is that it doesn't make sense to use budget to "restore" car back to the point it was when it was initially purchased for $900 two years ago, before it was pressed into DD service. And that's how i would tend to view it as well. It's maintenance. I wouldn't count every spark plug that's been through the motor, every oil filter, all the fluids, etc etc etc.
I wouldn't say the car has a weak transmission. I've put quite a few miles on it in horrifically overboosted condition. But because it's a FWD mazda transmission, the potential that it could fail spectacularly any day now is there. I wouldn't try to play "Challenge Math" games and adjust FMV of car to reflect a weak transmission, because it didn't have a weak/broken transmission when i bought it for $900 two years ago. But i suppose i could just start budget over at FMV and deduct transmission from it in it's current state, but that feels much more like "cheating" than how i (and presumably Angry) are looking at it.
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Let's say purchase price was $900 in this case. (it was) $900 gets car with working transmission. Working used transmission = $500. Car + working transmission = $900 $400 + $500 = $900 Car asplodes transmission at the way home today. I am in Indy, and therefor not a the challenge. I buy another $500 transmission and swap it in. (crusty used stock transmission). $900. The point Angry is making is that it doesn't make sense to use budget to "restore" car back to the point it was when it was initially purchased for $900 two years ago, before it was pressed into DD service. And that's how i would tend to view it as well. It's maintenance. I wouldn't count every spark plug that's been through the motor, every oil filter, all the fluids, etc etc etc.
That's not right. I see where you're coming from, but you still have $1400 in the car now. Swapping in a new transmission doesn't fit in with the "regular maintenance" spirit of the rule.
Your solution is to FMV the car once the transmission explodes to $400 (which isn't lying), and buying a $500 transmission. This lowers your recoupe, though. Unless you've started it anew as a Challenge build. Then you're SOL.
Osterkraut wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Let's say purchase price was $900 in this case. (it was) $900 gets car with working transmission. Working used transmission = $500. Car + working transmission = $900 $400 + $500 = $900 Car asplodes transmission at the way home today. I am in Indy, and therefor not a the challenge. I buy another $500 transmission and swap it in. (crusty used stock transmission). $900. The point Angry is making is that it doesn't make sense to use budget to "restore" car back to the point it was when it was initially purchased for $900 two years ago, before it was pressed into DD service. And that's how i would tend to view it as well. It's maintenance. I wouldn't count every spark plug that's been through the motor, every oil filter, all the fluids, etc etc etc.That's not right. I see where you're coming from, but you still have $1400 in the car now. Swapping in a new transmission doesn't fit in with the "regular maintenance" spirit of the rule.
Ok, so do i count the multiple cam seals this car ate, or the 6 sets of spark plugs, or the 2 oil pan gaskets, the 4 exhaust manifold gaskets, the 3 turbo gaskets, the 3 sets of wastegate gaskets that have needed to be replaced through the rigors of daily driving/testing?
92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Osterkraut wrote:Ok, so do i count the multiple cam seals this car ate, or the 6 sets of spark plugs, or the 2 oil pan gaskets, the 4 exhaust manifold gaskets, the 3 turbo gaskets, the 3 sets of wastegate gaskets that have needed to be replaced through the rigors of daily driving/testing?92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Let's say purchase price was $900 in this case. (it was) $900 gets car with working transmission. Working used transmission = $500. Car + working transmission = $900 $400 + $500 = $900 Car asplodes transmission at the way home today. I am in Indy, and therefor not a the challenge. I buy another $500 transmission and swap it in. (crusty used stock transmission). $900. The point Angry is making is that it doesn't make sense to use budget to "restore" car back to the point it was when it was initially purchased for $900 two years ago, before it was pressed into DD service. And that's how i would tend to view it as well. It's maintenance. I wouldn't count every spark plug that's been through the motor, every oil filter, all the fluids, etc etc etc.That's not right. I see where you're coming from, but you still have $1400 in the car now. Swapping in a new transmission doesn't fit in with the "regular maintenance" spirit of the rule.
Jesus, what have you been doing to that car?
Spark plugs, to me, are the only thing regular maintenance. Everything else seems above and beyond (or people would call rebuilding an engine maintenance [which would let rotaries do a lot better!]). We're in a grey area though.
Your best bet is to restart your "Challenge build" with the FMV of you car right now, with all those seals replaced, and a bum transmission.
Honestly though, you're not going to get turned away with anything but a ringer. Challenge people are good folk, and GRM at this point is happy just to have people in the paddock.
Osterkraut wrote:92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:Jesus, what have you been doing to that car? Spark plugs, to me, are the only thing regular maintenance. Everything else seems above and beyond (or people would call rebuilding an engine maintenance [which would let rotaries do a lot better!]). We're in a grey area though.Osterkraut wrote:Ok, so do i count the multiple cam seals this car ate, or the 6 sets of spark plugs, or the 2 oil pan gaskets, the 4 exhaust manifold gaskets, the 3 turbo gaskets, the 3 sets of wastegate gaskets that have needed to be replaced through the rigors of daily driving/testing?92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Let's say purchase price was $900 in this case. (it was) $900 gets car with working transmission. Working used transmission = $500. Car + working transmission = $900 $400 + $500 = $900 Car asplodes transmission at the way home today. I am in Indy, and therefor not a the challenge. I buy another $500 transmission and swap it in. (crusty used stock transmission). $900. The point Angry is making is that it doesn't make sense to use budget to "restore" car back to the point it was when it was initially purchased for $900 two years ago, before it was pressed into DD service. And that's how i would tend to view it as well. It's maintenance. I wouldn't count every spark plug that's been through the motor, every oil filter, all the fluids, etc etc etc.That's not right. I see where you're coming from, but you still have $1400 in the car now. Swapping in a new transmission doesn't fit in with the "regular maintenance" spirit of the rule.
It's had a hard life, and there comes a point where you decide (for example) that the THIRD factory Toyota turbo gasket just doesn't work well with the factory Mazda exhaust manifold and you don't feel like hitting the budget to have the manifold surface milled perfectly flat, so you use stove joint cement instead. (And budget the cement, and NOT the gaskets?)
Couple that with the fact that it runs a bit.... rich, mix in a few months of 20psi+, and you've got yourself a hell of a recipe.
Seems to be sorted pretty well right now though. All exhaust leaks are taken care of, the dizzy o-ring is the only oil leak left. (Wasn't leaking 2 years ago, what do?) The radiator is leaking slightly. (Already budgeted this one when i replaced it, so if i replace it again..... what do?)
A ringer, it's not. It doesn't look good, doesn't turn that well. It's a one-trick pony.
And it's one trick is doing a 1/8th mile burnout at the drag strip to run a low 13s quarter mile with a ~120mph trap speed.
I don't really think i'd be turned away, unless everyone was afraid of my solid middle-of-the-pack car. IF i won, (HAHA!!!!) i'd probably refuse the prize just because there seems to be a 50/50 state of dissent as to whether or not the car is legal.
I do have a running budget going, with around $200 left in leeway.
Osterkraut wrote: I don't agree: Car, with transmission: $1500 (for example). Spare transmission: $100. Car asplode transmission, put in the spare: $1600. Now, if you bought the car sans transmission for $1400, and two transmissions for $100 each, you could swap them out before the event for no added cost ($1500). Now, if you wanted to play Challenge Math (tm), and your DD had a weak transmission, you could adjust the FMV to include that, thus affording you a replacement. Also an option, pre-swapping the transmission and adjusting the FMV up (which may or may not be greater than the cost of the transmission). FMV for already owned cars start once you say "this will be my Challenge car." Or you could sell the bad transmission and use that recoup to buy another one.
I can see either side of this argument, but I think what Osterkraut has said here is technically the way the rules are worded. (this exact scenario is not mentioned, but it does say that if the rules don't specifically allow it, then it's not allowed.)
I would add this hypothetical scenario as food for thought:
Say team A buys a car for the challenge for $1000 (with a bill-of-sale) and needs to replace the transmission before comp. Team B buys the same car also for a total of $1000 but has an ITEMIZED bill of sale (used chassis - $300, used engine - $400, used transmission - $300). Now, since the transmission was purchased as a separate item, it should be ok under the rules to remove it from the budget if it is taken off the car, and replace it with a similar unit at the same cost, provided that both units are not used during comp.
You see the difficulty this presents? Essentially, this would mean that a major advantage is given to a team that prices everything individually when they buy it. Where do you draw the line between what is purchased as a "package deal" and what are separate purchases?
I don't know the answer, but this is a question I have thought about during my time building challenge cars.
My (conservative) budget for $2011 will be something like this:
$2000 - car
$500 - stuff for the car that doesn't count for the budget for safety
$2000 - Transporting car to Florida and back
$800 - Flying me and the mizz to Florida and back
$1000 - Hotels, registration, food, booze for the trip
Priceless - Hopefully not pulling an all nighter this time around and actually enjoying myself
That's over 6 grand and includes two of us flying down, paying a transporter to ship the car down, and eating and drinking like I'm on vacation. If I was in the southeast, I could easily cut that price in half.
If you wanted to account for tools and such, you'd throw another $1000 or so in there, but I use my tools for a lot more than $20XX cars so I don't count that.
Bryce
you budget whats on the car...
you buy the car as a whole... you swap in a new bigger IC... decide you want an even bigger IC... you don't count the 1st IC you installed... just the most recent... you goto the junkyard and swap an engine... it dies so you get another... it dies... you figure out that your tune is wrong on megasquirt and install a 3rd engine this time with a wideband... and get the tune right so the 3rd engine is good... you count the $ for the 3rd engine not all 3... and if you pull the wideband off before the challenge and you aren't hit with the wideband (as it is then considered a tool)
so you keep on your sheet a tally of whats on the car... if you remove it from the car remove it from the budget (but this is all assuming this is not counting for the inital stuff on the car)
Anyone who wants to debate Challenge rules with Angry is playing a fool's game.
Osterkraut:
You are correct that FMV is always an option. But you are reading into the rules when you say both transmissions need to be charged to the budget. They don't actually say.
Here are the options:
FMV the car. Potentially big disadvantage if there have been good parts swaps, or if the car is significantly built. I am aware of Challenge cars that have been professionally appraised after the Challenge for $14,000.
Take the budget hit. $900 for the car + $500 for the trans. Note that old trans is still "in" the budget, therefore can be recouped, swapped, or parts traded.
Run with Rule # 15 (All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2011 budget.) This may give some wiggle room as Angry is interpreting since the car was only restored to the condition it was purchased in. The case would have to be made by the entrant justifying that no improvement was made, and he'd be at the mercy of the judges. I'm pretty sure the judges would permit it.
Rule #15 offers NO wiggle room if the trans breaks and is replaced at the event (in combination with rule #26 defining penalties for replacing broken parts at the event.)
I don't like the FMV approach because it violates the spirit of the event. All cars depreciate as time goes on, which could justify FMVing anything just to get the price down, even vastly improved cars. I'm pretty sure the old rules used FMV only for parts, not whole cars. That's a game which is NOT what the intent of the rule was.
Back on topic...
Longer participation in the Challenge means lower overall costs. I don't pay for Challenge cars anymore. I have accumulated enough parts cars and misc. Challenge related stuff that I have been able to fund my last three Challenge cars without spending ANY new money. Just sold an old Challenger, parted something out that had been bought cheap, or bartered with someone from my vast assortment of Challenge car junk. I have a "car fund" which is funded only out of the stuff in my shop and parts cars.
Last trip to Gainesville (including hotel) was also paid for out of the "car fund".
Since this has turned into the challenge FAQ, if I buy something and have to have it shipped, does the cost of shipping have to be included in the budget?
turboHLS30 wrote: Since this has turned into the challenge FAQ, if I buy something and have to have it shipped, does the cost of shipping have to be included in the budget?
Absolutely.
"Shipping (or transportation costs) of the car and parts used in the building process must be counted toward the budget."
Ok cool, that puts me at $1035.96 so far 
That leaves me with $975.04 to spend. I might be able to do the whole challenge w/ food, hotel, fees, etc. for less than $2011
donalson wrote: you budget whats on the car... you buy the car as a whole... you swap in a new bigger IC... decide you want an even bigger IC... you don't count the 1st IC you installed... just the most recent... you goto the junkyard and swap an engine... it dies so you get another... it dies... you figure out that your tune is wrong on megasquirt and install a 3rd engine this time with a wideband... and get the tune right so the 3rd engine is good... you count the $ for the 3rd engine not all 3... and if you pull the wideband off before the challenge and you aren't hit with the wideband (as it is then considered a tool) so you keep on your sheet a tally of whats on the car... if you remove it from the car remove it from the budget (but this is all assuming this is not counting for the inital stuff on the car)
This has always been my take also.
Say you paint your entry flat black year, then remove said black and return in a white red and blue paint job, should this also be counted as two paint jobs for the budget? You wear out a set of Hoosiers and find a replacement set of the same tires for the same money, do you now count both sets?
Of course not, common sense should tell you this.
If there is no performance gain and stock/identical replacements are used, the removed parts should be simply replaced as wear and tear items
Why do I keep hearing people talk about "wear and tear items"? I am not aware of any such exemption in the rules, except for Rule #25 which specifically references ONLY tires and brakes from past Challenge cars.
However, this isn't even wear and tear. It's putting the car back in exactly the condition it was purchased in- no improvement, no wear and tear.
No offense to GRM, but If the 'real cost' of doing the Challenge was $5k or more, I wouldn't do the Challenge anymore. Not saying I wouldn't show up, but I wouldn't show up with a car. Granted, I don't have as bad of a drive as a lot of other folks.
It's worth the money to me just to go drink beer with Les. One day I might actually bring a car.
poopshovel wrote: No offense to GRM, but If the 'real cost' of doing the Challenge was $5k or more, I wouldn't do the Challenge anymore. Not saying I wouldn't show up, but I wouldn't show up with a car. Granted, I don't have as bad of a drive as a lot of other folks.
Speaking solely for myself, I literally started with nothing last year. I spent probably $1k last year on just the basics: starter tools (~$300), jack (~$200), jackstands (~$100), small compressor, etc. I'm willing to bet even the more experienced "shadetree" mechanics have significantly more than $1k of tools accumulated over the years. In my case, living in a condo in a high density area meant I had rental expenses for shop space that most folks won't have.
My cost for the next Challenge (either $2011 or $2012, not sure yet) will obviously be much lower, as the tools are paid for and I now have garage space included in my home. The big expense will once again be getting from California to the Challenge... about $3k total roundtrip (~$1500 in gas/hotels/food to drive there + event costs, ~$500 one-way return flight and ~$1k to ship car home). It's easy for me to justify that travel expense by combining the Challenge with a family trip, since they're all in AL and FL. But that's still a $5k total outlay for me once we toss in putting together a car.
With this in mind, if we're talking about the complete cost for a total newbie like myself to get to their first Challenge, including car, tools, and travel from an extreme distance, yes, I'd put that in the $5-8K range. As SVrex pointed out, though, the Challenges actually become cheaper the more often you participate. :D
There sure are a lot of ways to answer this question!
I don't think the collective wisdom of GRM can really tell you what the average "total" is.
I don't count tools, and I don't count travel costs. The cost of the car is somewhat south of $2011. THAT I'm pretty sure of.
All the other stuff you might need to figure out on a more personal basis. Some people have big travel expenses. Most people who do this already own some tools. Some people sleep on the floor of other people's hotel rooms.
I can also tell you (like Poopie) that I would NEVER spend $5K total on a Challenge experience. If I had anywhere near that, I'd burn it somewhere else.
poopshovel wrote: No offense to GRM, but If the 'real cost' of doing the Challenge was $5k or more, I wouldn't do the Challenge anymore. Not saying I wouldn't show up, but I wouldn't show up with a car. Granted, I don't have as bad of a drive as a lot of other folks.
This is where a ton of the costs come in when I figured out how much it would be if I were to do it. As has been said before, a lot of it would be 1 time expenses for many people with the tools. Gas to get down there costs money, you can't get around that. Food costs money, can't get around that. You might be able to get around the hotel costs. Adding in a car doesn't make it all that more expensive, especially if you can sell the car for close to what you have into it afterwards.
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