MrChaos said:Remeber for the sebring race chrysler sebrings race for free iirc
I don't think I could suffer through a single lap in one of those piles of E36 M3 if someone paid me!
MrChaos said:Remeber for the sebring race chrysler sebrings race for free iirc
I don't think I could suffer through a single lap in one of those piles of E36 M3 if someone paid me!
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) said:MrChaos said:Remeber for the sebring race chrysler sebrings race for free iirc
I don't think I could suffer through a single lap in one of those piles of E36 M3 if someone paid me!
think that is the point.
It seems like a whole lot of cars at LeMons are worse than any incarnation of the Sebring...
In normal times I may want to get involved with a LeMons team just to get some experience with the thing. It seems like fun from a distance.
frenchyd said:While humor is all good and well, a little goes a very long way and can easily turn to farce.
I realize that may come off as sanctimonious. But most racers understand exactly what is meant. The whole premise of racing cheap old cars is good humor in itself. When you add to that endurance racing. You've already reached near insanity levels. Ludicrous appendages push racing into the farce levels.
This may also be sanctimonious, but you just don't understand because you've never been to a Lemons race.
My cars get the attention of the judges, which means they win race awards, get featured in the official race recaps, and get written web article mention. We always have fellow racers coming by our paddock Saturday night to ogle and BS about what we've done. So it seems like other competitors as well as the organizers of Lemons like what we're doing, and we have a damn fine time building strange stuff.
Lof8 - Andy said:
just for reference, we're in a pretty standard miata. Nothing special. Junkyard engine and coilovers. I'm going to push the boys to do it. I've wanted to do a lemons race for a while but they haven't done much down in the FL area in a long time.
I would honestly estimate this car to be Class A with zero penalty laps, especially if the judges have never seen you at an event before. You can pretend to be newbs and they will assume you'll be too busy stepping on your own weiners to be competitive.
Agreed. A zero would be my pick for that. Flat black is always an indicator for problems, but just mention to them about your attitude and you'll be fine.
In reply to newrider3 :
You're right. I don't want awards or to get featured. I enjoy racing. Period. Taking 30-40 year old cheap cars and racing them is plenty humorous. Doing so on a very tight budget calls for great ingenuity, creativity, and hard work. Success is reward enough.
Success is measured in going well and doing it modestly. My idea of getting attention is doing something so subtle knowledgeable people only see it after studying it for a while.
Doesn't mean it gives a performance edge, rather something different or more tidy way to do something.
I kinda thought that the name of the events itself, would show that the humor was meant to be a farce! Isn’t that the point?
Bring some good beer or expensive bourbon, scotch to bribe the judges. Having a good/fun attitude during the judging will also help from getting penalty laps. Don't act like a serious real racer, because the judges hate that.
During the race traffic is pretty hectic. You need to keep in mind that there are drivers on track without any experience so expect the unexpected.
03Panther said:I kinda thought that the name of the events itself, would show that the humor was meant to be a farce! Isn’t that the point?
Chump Car started on the same premise but found that you can have real fun just racing. That taking old cheap cars and going racing on a limited budget is fun by itself.
frenchyd said:Chump Car started on the same premise but found that you can have real fun just racing. That taking old cheap cars and going racing on a limited budget is fun by itself.
I’m not sure I understand the difference.
If there is a limited number of slots available, the theme teams will most likely be chosen first.
In reply to Appleseed :
Not exactly. You don't state a theme when you sign up, just a concept. You can write about your theme, your profound love of your car or an unrelated limerick etc.
In reply to 03Panther :
I think he's trying to say that the fun comes from racing, not from themeing your car. I derive a lot of my Lemons satisfaction from racing, but damn if it's not fun to dress up yourself and the car once in a while. I've only dressed up 3 times, all for the CMP parade. Either race series you're goal is to get on track and race.
Champcar is more focused on racing than Lemons. Like the Lemons website says where Halloween meets gasoline.
That was true when the guys who started Chump broke off from LeMons a decade ago. Since then both series have changed quite a bit. Lemons got more expensive, faster, safer and more focused on racing. Chump got faster and more expensive. Both have lost the original $500 rule long ago. Some lemons cars are legitimate $500 cars but at this point that's really rare and overlooked as long as it follows the "spirit" of lemons such as the Serpent of Ecstasy which is a legit $5000 build that is silly, fast and blows up a lot. "$500 my ass." Chump(it was still called that as the change occurred) became a spec series for 20+ year old cars. As long as your car is on the list of approved cars it doesn't matter how much your specific example cost or how good the condition is, so we're seeing what are effectively refurbished cars.
The big difference, you're not going to see a Lemons C class car at a Champ race these days. Even a slower Lemons Class B isn't going to be a good Champ choice. My diesel Mercedes(won C now in B) wouldn't be close to competitive, but it's an actual $550(we went over budget) car and it places near halfway up the standings. Some guys don't want to have slower cars on track and I can respect that. I enjoy the variety.
Is there a breakdown of the lemons classing somewhere?
C = no hope of finishing or winning.
B = chance of finishing, no hope of winning
A= chance of finishing and winning.
I’m stuck in B for ever.
Also they have a great website.
buzzboy said:In reply to Appleseed :
Not exactly. You don't state a theme when you sign up, just a concept. You can write about your theme, your profound love of your car or an unrelated limerick etc.
In reply to 03Panther :
I think he's trying to say that the fun comes from racing, not from themeing your car. I derive a lot of my Lemons satisfaction from racing, but damn if it's not fun to dress up yourself and the car once in a while. I've only dressed up 3 times, all for the CMP parade. Either race series you're goal is to get on track and race.
I understand the need to distract yourself from the grind of race preparation. Good for you.
I get my joy out out of focusing on the work. Head down and concentrating.
To me working from a tiny pool of money generated with income from my restoration business. ( my day job paid for the home and family). By doing it that way I didn't have to take money from my kids and family for my hobby.
We don't really have a theme. We do have go fast stickers that have been modified to be funny, but that's about as far as it goes.
Three Pedal Mafia has Black Betty the GM 3800 RX7. And we have Ugly Betty, the GM 3800 RX7.
Residual value does allow for developement over time. We've always tried to stay close to the spirit overall, doing our best to buy whole cars and parting them out to keep the budget close to zero. We've done pretty well given that, but some real suspension would greatly aid us. We're still able to perform at the pointy end of lap times, but our lack of a fuel cell and focus on getting our 5 guys ample seat time means we lose a lot of time pitting and changing drivers. It's a choice we've made.
buzzboy said:That was true when the guys who started Chump broke off from LeMons a decade ago. Since then both series have changed quite a bit. Lemons got more expensive, faster, safer and more focused on racing. Chump got faster and more expensive. Both have lost the original $500 rule long ago. Some lemons cars are legitimate $500 cars but at this point that's really rare and overlooked as long as it follows the "spirit" of lemons such as the Serpent of Ecstasy which is a legit $5000 build that is silly, fast and blows up a lot. "$500 my ass." Chump(it was still called that as the change occurred) became a spec series for 20+ year old cars. As long as your car is on the list of approved cars it doesn't matter how much your specific example cost or how good the condition is, so we're seeing what are effectively refurbished cars.
The big difference, you're not going to see a Lemons C class car at a Champ race these days. Even a slower Lemons Class B isn't going to be a good Champ choice. My diesel Mercedes(won C now in B) wouldn't be close to competitive, but it's an actual $550(we went over budget) car and it places near halfway up the standings. Some guys don't want to have slower cars on track and I can respect that. I enjoy the variety.
There isn't a single thing wrong with being a slow guy. Driving a near stock MGTD ( 54 horsepower ) has me at the slow end of the Vintage groups Ive raced with. I find people to dice with but I'm very careful to watch my rear view mirrors especially when I'm dicing closely with others.
If I see them in time., Ive solidly over pointing them by. But if they catch me at the wrong point I'll keep my line and point them by.
That rule works even when I'm up front and the fast guy. I watch my mirrors and if I'm going to pass I make sure they see me, either with a point by or watching his line enough to know where he's going to be.
The problem with both LeMons and Champ Car is the percentage of new guys who are over their heads. Glance in their mirror rarely, and lack any predictability.
When you have guys who just put their money down that's what happens. It's just part of low dollar endurance racing.
DaveEstey said:We don't really have a theme. We do have go fast stickers that have been modified to be funny, but that's about as far as it goes.
Three Pedal Mafia has Black Betty the GM 3800 RX7. And we have Ugly Betty, the GM 3800 RX7.
Residual value does allow for developement over time. We've always tried to stay close to the spirit overall, doing our best to buy whole cars and parting them out to keep the budget close to zero. We've done pretty well given that, but some real suspension would greatly aid us. We're still able to perform at the pointy end of lap times, but our lack of a fuel cell and focus on getting our 5 guys ample seat time means we lose a lot of time pitting and changing drivers. It's a choice we've made.
You're probably a whole lot smarter than I. You couldn't pay me enough to blindly jump into A car I haven't prepped and driving it at racing speeds.
Frenchy,
(Lots of deleted text was here.)
Happy Thanksgiving!
frenchyd said:You're probably a whole lot smarter than I. You couldn't pay me enough to blindly jump into A car I haven't prepped and driving it at racing speeds.
It's really not as bad as it looks. At least you have a cage, belts, helmet, Hans, fire suit, with good tires and brakes. Plus everybody is going the same direction, most of the time....It's safer than driving on the freeway with phone watching drivers with 4 different under inflated tires with no driving skills.
So I have never done a Lemons race, but I have friends who have and who started there. We are a pretty competitive ChampCar team and I have always wanted to try Lemons because I heard that it is a good series to be able to work on passing. I believe they have 90 cars at Gingerman where ChampCar caps it at 65-70 cars.
I am on the BOD for ChampCar and very dedicated to the series, but I am open to try other series. I have done a couple of WRL events but that was when they first came out as a new series. I have never done AER.
I think ChampCar and Lemons are both great for amateur and new drivers to get on track. That is why I started in ChampCar racing a Dodge Shadow at Road America.
Here is my car for comparison on what it would be valued or looked at for Lemons:
sergio said:frenchyd said:You're probably a whole lot smarter than I. You couldn't pay me enough to blindly jump into A car I haven't prepped and driving it at racing speeds.
It's really not as bad as it looks. At least you have a cage, belts, helmet, Hans, fire suit, with good tires and brakes. Plus everybody is going the same direction, most of the time....It's safer than driving on the freeway with phone watching drivers with 4 different under inflated tires with no driving skills.
I agree that with experience racing isn't as scary as it seems. Yes all the things you say about racing are valid.
The trouble is the significant portion of novice race drivers with no experience, and a vague knowledge of what's going on. While some do remarkably well, too many have the money to buy a ride and no investment other than that.
Oh SCCA, Vintage, and others have some of that too, they just have better schools, and sorting process.
I love the concept of Chump Car and LeMons. If I were younger I'd race the whole series. I'd find a way to get 4 decent drivers invested in the car enough to feel confident that should a accident occur it's not of their creating.
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