2WD Diesel Ponderings

Not looking for a 2WD vs 4WD show down here. Thats not the idea, thats not the point.

Been reading this diesel thread on here and a lot of whats on there is true. My buddy has a Dodge Ram with the Cummins in it and between his truck and hanging around the local diesel shop/ dads work, etc i have a certain fondness for them.

This is more in a while then pipe dream so i wanna feel it out a bit more.

Lets keep the trucks turbo diesel not just diesel. Newer then late 90's only cause its newer and cleaner start (usually) Would prefer a manual trans but not set on it.

I think you could really have a do it all vehicle.

Lower the suspension first of all. This is more street truck then mudder. Not scraping the ground but give it a nice stance. Some nice wheels, probably factory take off pieces, nothing too gaudy or big. Helper air bags in the back so it wont sag ass with a load or pulling a trailer. Maybe do sway bars to keep it planted?

Just do your basic intake, chip and exhaust. Maybe a FASS fuel system down the road a bit and just rock it. Plenty of power.

NO STACKS. Have exhaust out the rear or something normal.

Anything but a single cab. I need buddy hauling room. Keep the interior simple/ stock. Maybe just add a new radio and a few extra 12V power sources.

Lastly, maybe get a cap. not sold on that yet.

With all that, i figure it could do everything needed. and have some fun and make some power.

My questions:

• Whats the best (realistic, not pie in the sky dreaming) MPG i could expect with a conservative tune and 2WD. ( i am coming from a 30MPG saturn mindset, i understand a drop here but i dont want a freaking pig. wont have it, ill scrap the idea. i drive a lot and wont do it haha)

• Any thoughts on a stick vs auto in this situation? Auto seems more cruiser truck but i like driving a manual a lot.

• Keep a bed or get a flat bed?

• Any trucks that may work better for this?

• stuff to stay away from?

Thanks guys.

Having driven a few diesels with manuals, both cars and trucks, the whole manual thing isn't as big a deal in a diesel. Especially in a big heavy diesel truck. Shifting becomes less of a good time and more of a chore.

On the topic of milage...

My truck ('02 Silverado 2500HD crew cab short bed) gets 14 mpg with the Duramax. Doesn't matter how I drive it, commuting in stop and go traffic, cruising on the freeway, towing the Miata up a 8% grade at 7000 feet, it gets 14 mpg. So thats a long way from your 30 mpg Saturn. :)

You are likely going to find a bunch of duallies. Fair warning, a 2wd diesel pickup can get stuck in wet grass. It is older than you want, but the 12 valve generally gets the best mileage of all of them, and is the most reliable. My 1998 4wd quad cab averages an honest 19. Has 800 torque at 2k at the rear wheels, and drives great. I am never selling it. Ever. Jcamper

Do some google fu for economy tunes. I know one guy was in a recent magazine contest and got like 27mpg or better with his Duramax

CarKid1989 wrote: I think you could really have a do it all vehicle.

that's one of the reasons I love diesel trucks. massive torque, good MPG, easy to modify, large aftermarket following.

- Whats the best (realistic, not pie in the sky dreaming) MPG i could expect with a conservative tune and 2WD. ( i am coming from a 30MPG saturn mindset, i understand a drop here but i dont want a freaking pig. wont have it, ill scrap the idea. i drive a lot and wont do it haha)

25 is a pretty easy number for a 12v cummins, but (just like a gas engine) it depends on how you drive. Advancing the timing is the big key here. OEMs inject the fuel later to A) reduce NVH and B) to keep NOx down.

- Any thoughts on a stick vs auto in this situation? Auto seems more cruiser truck but i like driving a manual a lot.

Lots to think about here... A bit of theory first. Diesel engines are violent power producers. The vibes they make are tremendous. They also make mountains of torque. The main downfall of an auto tranny behind a diesel is pure torque overcoming the frictions and causing massive wear and heating. The main downfall of manual trannys behind a diesel is that they get rattled apart.

So, if you're planning on upgrades, be prepared to spend massive amounts of money getting an auto to survive. All of the big three have a few good ones and a few bad ones.

GM: The 6.2L had a TH400 behind it. The 6.2 never made enough torque or power to overwhelm the tranny. The 6.5T had the 4L80E behind it. Again, the modest upgrade in torque was accompanied by a modest upgrade in capacity with the tranny. The Duramax has the Allison (with the exception of some vans having the 4L85E). the Allison is a fantastic tranny that GM almost destroyed with their wimpy shifting. A truckload of dollar bills will turn it into a nearly bulletproof unit.

Ford: Early powerstrokes had the E4OD which was the predecessor to the 4R100. In stock applications they are pretty stout. Later 5R110 and 6R trannys are kinda like the Allison. Open the big wallet for reliability.

Dodge: Most of the automatics are pretty bad up until the 68RE which (again) is OK in stock form but needs the big wallet to take mods.

Manuals: If you are going manual, consider this. The big thing that kills manuals behind a diesel are the vibes. There are massive pulses "smacking" the crankshaft. Its rare at the shop that I see a manual behind a diesel that has failed because of too much torque. They're always rattled apart. If you are considering V8 vs I6 (like Duramax vs. Cummins) use this comparison. Let's say you have a Duramax making 240 hp and a Cummins making 240 hp. (forgive the simplicity of this, but it works) The Duramax creates a 30 hp pulse ever 90 degrees of rotation while the Cummins makes a 40 hp pulse every 120 degrees. You can see how the same manual tranny might not hold up as well behind the Cummins.

Ever see one of those old videos of guys driving railroad spikes? There are usually 2 guys with hammers alternating hits. Imagine you had 2 guys with 20-lb hammers. You could accomplish the same task if you had 4 guys with 10-lb hammers and the spike would be less likely to develop damage.

If you are doing a manual, the NV5600 is considered the most reliable of the common offerings. Its massive, its case is cast iron, and its available in many ratios. The Fords had a ZF 6-speed that was also pretty beefy, but its not as common or as cheap to repair.

- Keep a bed or get a flat bed?

I'm a fan of flatbeds for utility and convenience. Regular stock beds are great for using it like a truck when you need a truck, and keeping the ability to use a camper/cap if you choose.

- Any trucks that may work better for this?

If you are mixing and matching engines/trannys, a Chevy will swallow anything you can put in it with cheap parts. As far as the rest, its personal preference. I personally love the design of the chevys, the ergonomics and fit/finish of the Fords, and the engine in the Dodge. If I had my absolute first choice of perfect pickup truck, it would be a 99-03 F250 with a 12v Cummins and a beefed-up Allison (or an NV5600) and Chevy seats. Like I said, though... there are people out there who swear that the cheap, squeaky, rattly interior of a Dodge is the best thing in the world because, "who cares, it has a cummins." Others with bony butts might prefer the Ford seats. Others with a Duramax will swear that the front wheel bearing problems aren't an issue because, "Muricah - berkeley yeah."

- stuff to stay away from?

• LB7 (first few years) Duramax that hasn't had the injectors replaced.
• Ford 6.0L and (to a slightly lesser extent) 6.4L. They were plagued with problems that range from inconvenience to massive failure.
• I'm not a fan of the 24v cummins 5.9L simply because their weak point is the lift pump. The VP44 injection pump doesn't like to be starved for fuel and will die very expensively. That is of course easily fixed with an aftermarket lift pump (like the FASS you mentioned) but its hard to tell if there has been any damage up to this point.

I'm not a techno-phobe, but the 12v Cummins with a beefy manual behind it is hard to beat. The tranny might rattle apart at 150k, but its cheaper to fix/upgrade than an automatic. Mechanically injected engine, non-electronic transmission... its zombie-proof.

Yeah, the older 12V's are the best mileage you're going to get, and they are mechanical! My 93 got 21 mpg all day long. Put 10,000 on a trailer and that mileage plummeted to....19-20 mpg. Newer diesels won't even get that high empty.

You likely have your eyes on a Cummins, but my dads '02 7.3 powerstroke routinely gets 20-21 empty on freeway and 17-18 freeway towing his heavy fishing boat.

CarKid1989 wrote: - Keep a bed or get a flat bed?

Keep it a pickup bed. Insurance is higher on trucks with flatbeds, box or utility bodies as they are considered commercial trucks. This is what my State Farm agent said and a friends insurance said the same. I would check with your insurance first to see what they say before buying a flatbed.

Any of the OEM trucks that offer a diesel package are going to have a good enough suspension for hauling, I can't imagine you are trying to haul a 30' 5th wheel camper or several horse stall horse trailer. So the helper bags and things like would be unnecessary, save that money for the race car :)

I'd go with a box or a cap or something more SUV like but I know you can't get that with a cummins via dodge, a merc diesel in the sprinter is an option though, great capacity and mileage. A flat bed would work but its safer easier better to haul car bits with the a bed or bed w cap.

Also whats your experience backing up a trailer? Stick shift and newbie experience will make it harder but not impossible.

also manual trans diesel hold a premium but they also sell at a premium :)

I just got an 06 Duramax 4x4 Dually and am averaging 17.1MPG, everything stock. This is only through 4 tanks so far though, mostly highway driving, no towing yet.

I like the idea of a 2WD Diesel with a manual. Good luck finding one though.

I have basically this same dream for a ratty / custom / hauler non-DD type truck. I don't off road, I don't tow a boat. I'd use it for hauling dirty things, heavy things, and occasionally dragging a trailer around with a race car/project car/donor car/etc. I'm a former minitrucker and I still have a soft spot for excessively lowered and modified vehicles, even if it "ruins" some of the capacity it left the factory with.

Basically I view it as starting with something that's so overkill for what I need, it'll still do everything I need while also being something completely different out on the road. Rather than a static drop I'd go all the way down with airbags so it will still ride comfortably while slammed, and adjust pressure for hauling/towing, and lay it out when cruising around. With a properly designed rear bag mount/frame notch, bed intrusion can be kept to a minimum.

It seems the sweet spot for diesels is mid to late '90's up to the early '00's. After that things are more complex, more crimped by emissions, and until you get into the really big $$ new stuff, no better on mpg's or upgradeability.

My current pipe dream is to enter at a cheap price point with a '99+ Superduty Crew cab non-dually longbed because I like the way they look and the cabs/beds are basically the same as the new ones. Crew cab lets me haul my kids, and with a longbed I can fit anything in the back, and the overall look gets into the ridiculous category (in a good way). If I couldn't find a 7.3 Powerstroke cheap enough, since I don't really need a diesel, the 5.4 Tritons can be had dirt cheap, and I figured I'd run that for awhile, while searching for a 12V Cummins drivetrain to swap if I ever blow up the V8. The '08+ front sheetmetal can be made to fit with some modifications to the core support, along with the newest mirrors/tailgate bolting on. For a relatively low budget (think 1/4 price of new truck) and some junkyard sourcing, I'd end up with what looks like a '12 Superduty Crew cab laid out on the ground with a flat or militant/industrial looking paint job, with Cummins power pushing through a "all the way to the tail" exhaust, getting 20ish MPG. It would do everything I wanted, make massive torque, and be a blast to cruise around getting WTF looks from everybody, yet be built cheap enough and rugged enough I wouldn't care about throwing junkyard motors in the back or whatever else needs hauled.

/dream land.

back to work.

CarKid1989 wrote: Lower the suspension first of all. This is more street truck then mudder. Not scraping the ground but give it a nice stance. Some nice wheels, probably factory take off pieces, nothing too gaudy or big. Helper air bags in the back so it wont sag ass with a load or pulling a trailer. Maybe do sway bars to keep it planted?

Watch the overall wheel/tire combo weight. Doesn't seem to matter on the E-rated tires on pattern to MPG. Only when do people increase overall diameter does mileage suffer. Air bags might be overkill unless you are hauling quite a bit. They DO smooth out the ride though because they take the little bump control off the stock stiff springs and shocks better with just a few psi in the bags.

CarKid1989 wrote: NO STACKS. Have exhaust out the rear or something normal. Anything but a single cab. I need buddy hauling room. Keep the interior simple/ stock. Maybe just add a new radio and a few extra 12V power sources. Lastly, maybe get a cap. not sold on that yet. With all that, i figure it could do everything needed. and have some fun and make some power.

Sounds good to me. If you want buddy hauling room, the only cab worth a damn is a crew cab. I have an extended cab Ford and unless they are kids, no pair of adults will sit back there comfortably. The seat is hard and about 11" deep, plus no seat back worth a damn.

CarKid1989 wrote: My questions: - Whats the best (realistic, not pie in the sky dreaming) MPG i could expect with a conservative tune and 2WD. ( i am coming from a 30MPG saturn mindset, i understand a drop here but i dont want a freaking pig. wont have it, ill scrap the idea. i drive a lot and wont do it haha) - Any thoughts on a stick vs auto in this situation? Auto seems more cruiser truck but i like driving a manual a lot. - Keep a bed or get a flat bed? - Any trucks that may work better for this? - stuff to stay away from? Thanks guys.

I know bone stock my 97 PSD got 18-19 all the time, worst was an empty v-nose enclosed trailer I delivered for a buddy and I got 15-16. Most of the Cummins numbers are unrealistically inflated to make them look better. They do stuff like travelling at 50-55 down the freeway in OD, converter locked across Texas. 98-04 7.3's in the SD's are basically the same motor in the previous years, but get about another 1-2 mpg. Duramax's I see barely get 20. If you mod SENSIBLY, you could hit 25mpg without too much cost outlay and not have a Cummins, and not paying the Cummins tax either, between the fenders.

For a diesel, automatic for me. I love a good manual, but not with a diesel. All the auto's for the big 3 are fine. Most of the failures are too much power and the trans is still as factory produced, maintenance failure, and lowest bidder converter failures.

Keep the bed, unless you buy a truck already converted. Flat beds are great for farm trucks, not so much for everything else.

All the the trucks have their respective issues. GM's love eating tie rods and wheel bearings, they pulled a Dodge on this one. Ford 7.3's love CmPS and not everyone is well versed on fixing the HEUI system. Dodges depends on the body style for problems, BR bodies love eating front wheel bearings. DR bodies love puking rear diffs. Both of them like failing injector pumps because the lift pump fails, but an AirDog/FASS fixes that.

Interiors.... They all suck. But the Fords probably have the nicest in materials, but for function, I like Dodges. GM's are the cheapest and the most worthless interior out there. I don't like the Fords sitting position. Reminded me of sitting on a milk crate with my head way above everything. It is so unFord-like with the seat so high and the dash oh so low.

http://chambana.craigslist.org/cto/3446032956.html

I've been eying this one..

Would look great lowered a bit..

CarKid1989 wrote: Lastly, maybe get a cap. not sold on that yet.

One thing I did with my last truck was to rig up a simple ratchet strap/pulley type system in my garage. The cap was clamped to the bed, and the "gasket" was mounted sticky side towards the cap rather than the bed rails. If I wanted the cap removed, I'd pull the truck in the garage, close the garage door, undo the clamps and slide the straps under the cap. Ratchet/pulley the cap up to the ceiling (above the garage door)... out of sight, out of mind. If your garage is tall enough it's a neat way to hide it and easily remove/install as a one man job. If the trucks' too big to fit in the garage with the door closed you could do this backwards... back in, and have the cap up to the ceiling in the "front" half of the garage.

CarKid1989 wrote: - Keep a bed or get a flat bed?

I'd definitely keep the bed from an aesthetics standpoint unless you are using this as a serious work truck. If you need a flatbed from time to time it's easy to borrow/rent a flatbed trailer which will likely be easier to load/unload anyways.

81cpcamaro wrote: Keep it a pickup bed. Insurance is higher on trucks with flatbeds, box or utility bodies as they are considered commercial trucks. This is what my State Farm agent said and a friends insurance said the same. I would check with your insurance first to see what they say before buying a flatbed.

I think this varies widely between companies. My Cargo van was considered commercial with Progressive and the rates were higher. They used the VIN to determine that it didn't have back windows or seats. My current insurance company uses GVW. I asked them if they cared about seats or windows and they said no.

I have only a small experience with the Dodge diesels but what I do have was back in 2003 with a 2WD, 6 speed, and a big cab but not the 4 door version. Drove it from Toledo, OH to Rockford, IL pulling a 45ft 5th wheel trailer and it had plenty of power!. However I didn't track the MPG on that trip. The next time I drove it was from Rockford, IL to Dayton, OH and back in one day with out a trailer. With the tailgate in the lowered postion and no load I averaged 60+ mph and pulled 20 MPG on the trip!

I love 2WD Manual trans PU's! I drove a couple of late 90's F450 Ford trucks with the 7.3L PS that power wise can't compare to the early 2000's versions but try as I might I couldn't kill them. MPG was never good but I hauled loads up to nearly 30K with them.

There were at least 3 F250's PS that showed up on CL in the past few months in the Chicago area and I still kick myself for not at least going to look at them. They are slow movers when they do show up for sale. Everyone seems to want the 4WD/Auto trans versions which is better for me.

Ranger50 wrote: Watch the overall wheel/tire combo weight. Doesn't seem to matter on the E-rated tires on pattern to MPG. Only when do people increase overall diameter does mileage suffer.

Weight of the tire/wheel will have a very small impact on MPG, but it will affect it - especially in stop/go driving. Diameter is also something that can help OR hurt, much like getting the proper rear gears. Increasing diameter (or decreasing it) could improve or hurt mileage.

One thing that I have noticed is that the width of the tire is a large contributor - both in wind resistance and rolling resistance. My F250 PSD rolled on 215/85-16. My E350 van has 245/75-16. Same basic diameter, but I'll be switching the van to 215/85 next time and see what it does to my mileage.

I really want to do a similar thing to you, only add veggie oil. Maybe add 4x4 since it would become a winter vehicle. Not entirely necessary (heck, I drive a Miata in the winter right now!), but I cannot deny that 4x4 is better in the slick stuff.

my 4wd 8200 lb 6.0 powerstroke excursion regularly gets 18 mpg tankfuls on the highway. I can do 14 mpg towing a 10k trailer. mixed city is usually 16 or so, but I have done over 22 on the highway if speeds are kept low and I stay behind (not necessarily on the ass of) a large truck.

The 2wd's I guess get a bit better mpg, less weight, lower to the ground.

I know several people with 7.3's that have also had highway tanks in the 20's.

I wouldn't ever want a manual transmission behind my diesel, and few others do too... thats why its so hard to find one (and I think dodge is the only one still even offering one).

I know lots of guys with diesel trucks. I cannot think of a single one of them with a manual transmission that hasn't been through at least one rebuild before 100k. thats pretty much reality. The shifters on these trucks have a throw measured in yards not inches, and going through the gears unloaded with 500-600 ft lbs of torque is not very rewarding. Most of the time you can start in 2nd and skip shift to 4th.

As for the autos, the allisons are pretty famous for needing some work to be reliable. I've seen quite a few with over 100k that were cheap because they needed a new trans. If you want to turn up the boost, you will probably need to spend some cash upgrading them. Diesel power has covered the allison pretty extensively.

the ford 4r100 is a total piece of E36 M3, I know people that have done stock rebuilds every 40-50k. If you tow or plow they just die. If you leave them alone you are lucky (extremely lucky) to get 100k out of one. My truck has the 5r, its a LOT stouter than the 4r. For a stock or slightly tuned truck it will be reliable just the way it is. If you want a 500 hp truck it will need work, but then all the autos will need to be built for that. If you want a 500 hp truck and you want a manual, you will probably be looking a clutch that's not very streetable and replacing transmissions every so often.

For the engines, the new emissions era trucks all are extremely complicated and come tuned much closer to the edge than they did 10 or 15 years ago. You can't add a chip and get 50 hp like you could before (not without blowing things up anyway). EGR coolers are unreliable. Diesel exhaust fluid is a pain in the ass. Regenerative cycles kill fuel mileage.

Personally, for the premium the diesel trucks command, for your stated goals, you are gonna be a lot happier with a gas truck. The gas truck is lighter so if you lower it and hypermile you can get fuel mileage rivaling or exceeding the diesel, and you don't need all that torque if you aren't gonna be using it for heavy hauling and towing. Gas is much cheaper than diesel, and the maintenance on a gas engine is a quarter to a third of the cost of maintenace on a diesel, and the new diesels are fussy about regular maintenance. Gas engines warm up faster. diesels are slow to warm up and all the newer ones dump fuel until they are warm so they get really bad MPG until warm. on a 40 degree day it can take my 6.0 5-10 miles to hit the thermostat.

I think the best engines to work on, drive, beat on, etc, are the late 90's offerings. I'm not a huge duramax fan, just have not seen much evidence that they are more reliable than the powerstroke or the cummins. The cummins are all durable but your best bet is a 12v. dead simple and easy to work on and will make as much power or more than any other engine out there. all problems are known and all solutions are a ups box away. adapters to any transmission known to man are available as well should you chose to drop this motor in your wrapper of choice.

The 7.3 ford powerstroke is a great, reliable motor with good power potential too. the injector fire system uses a high pressure oil pump and is less reliable than the older cummins. Sadly they come sadled with 4r's.

having owned a few diesel trucks and having had a half dozen or so in the family, as well as knowing a ton of peple that run them, I think if you have never owned a diesel before your best bet is to try and find an older used one to start with. The old ford 7.3 idi non turbos get pretty amazing mpg. I had a 91 ext cab long bed 2wd with really low gears, maybe 2.73's, and it would run 70 mph at 1200 rpm and get 20 mpg all day. not bad for a giant brick. I've seen great deals on these trucks too, $1000 for a running 2wd with higher miles around here. thats about half of what your "intake, chip, and exhaust" will cost you for a new cummins, pstroke, or dmax.

My brother has a twin turbo common rail cummins with the NV 6 speed, triple disc clutch, and a ton of modifications (all new fuel system, dual pumps, head studs, blah blah). In 4 hi it will burn the tires at any rpm, any speed. You can hit it at 70 mph on a straight stretch and spin the inside front tire. 2wd is an exercise in self restraint.

another guy around here has a black triple turbo newer chevy, looks like a total street truck. He likes to take it to the truck pulls and run exhibition after the built diesel trucks pull (the ones that come in on a trailer) and usually outpulls them. lol.

But no matter what you do to them, they aren't that fun to drive. Not like a car is. The steering systems are an older design with a ton of play. No matter what springs and bushings you use, you still have a heavy body on a heavy frame.

xflowgolf wrote: IMy current pipe dream is to enter at a cheap price point with a '99+ Superduty Crew cab non-dually longbed because I like the way they look and the cabs/beds are basically the same as the new ones. The '08+ front sheetmetal can be made to fit with some modifications to the core support, along with the newest mirrors/tailgate bolting on.

Just so you know, the '08 up front end swap is a lot more involved than youre making it out to be here. a few guys have done it on the excursion forums and there is a lot of work involved, you have to modify the fenders, hood, and core support, and then youre left with the fact that the rear fender lines don't match the front in any way whatsoever, which looks awkward. The 05 and up front end will bolt on with some work to the headlight buckets depending on the year you start with, and is considered by many to be the best looking front end (including me).

andrave wrote: Just so you know, the '08 up front end swap is a lot more involved than youre making it out to be here. a few guys have done it on the excursion forums and there is a lot of work involved, you have to modify the fenders, hood, and core support, and then youre left with the fact that the rear fender lines don't match the front in any way whatsoever, which looks awkward. The 05 and up front end will bolt on with some work to the headlight buckets depending on the year you start with, and is considered by many to be the best looking front end (including me).

Oh I understand it's a major job, and I didn't mean to imply it's easy. I've seen it done a few times as well and read a couple write-ups, I meant more that someone with a welder and a willingness to build a custom can tackle it by building the mounting points without having to "graft" sheetmetal together like someone would have to do on a truck with dissimilar body lines like grafting an '11 Chevy front end on a '99 Chevy square body (requires sectioning fenders together and the like). I don't mind cutting/welding bracketry, or chopping up bumper brackets, so long as the "pretty" points on the exterior sheetmetal match up to the doors/windshield out of the box.

...again, pipe dream at this point

That said, I wasn't aware that the bedsides changed. Do the '08+ trucks have an updated sheetmetal on the doors/bed? I did a quick Google image search of new trucks vs. '00 trucks and they look pretty similar. I wasn't aware they were different. I was under the impression that other than the very involved front end swap, the rest is just mirrors/taillights, and tailgate.

I was thinking they changed the rear fenders with the 08 front end... maybe that wasn't until the 2010 or whatever when they went to the new body style. I can't see any damn pictures at work they have all the photo hosting sites blocked.

If I were buying right now, i'd get a 7.3 stroke or a 12v Cummins. The stroke will be cheaper. IMO, for street/driving duty, the stroke is every bit as reliable as the 5.9. You'll go through glow plug relays every 60k and a cam position sensor at 200k, but they are stout.

Not only is the stroke usually cheaper to buy, I prefer the Ford that is wrapped around it as well as the V8 (see vibes post above).

The 4R100/E4OD isn't the greatest, but it sure is cheaper to build than a Dodge RE. Its also easier for most builders to get it "right" the first time. But I also wouldn't hesitate to put an NV5600 behind the V8 either. In fact, I'm looking at how to put one in this: