40 MPG Plateau?

JoeyM wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

JoeyM wrote: Why can't sports car guys and tree huggers just work for the common goal of smaller, lighter cars. The reasons why may differ, but it is something achievable that would allow everybody to win.

Well, for starters, I will have three kids in May and I have a 75 lb dog (used to have two). There's no real way to convey all of them using something small and light. Carseats are gigantic.

What is you could have something that was large and light? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D-uhKHy7mk&feature=player_embedded

Oh absolutely, but my budget was 7K. That wouldn't cover the raw carbon fiber.

tuna55 wrote:

JoeyM wrote:

tuna55 wrote:

JoeyM wrote: Why can't sports car guys and tree huggers just work for the common goal of smaller, lighter cars. The reasons why may differ, but it is something achievable that would allow everybody to win.

Well, for starters, I will have three kids in May and I have a 75 lb dog (used to have two). There's no real way to convey all of them using something small and light. Carseats are gigantic.

What is you could have something that was large and light? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8D-uhKHy7mk&feature=player_embedded

Oh absolutely, but my budget was 7K. That wouldn't cover the raw carbon fiber.

Clearly, you also like to avoid the "depreciation tax" on new vehicles. In that case, you're totally right....nothing I can do there.

The guys who built that car claim, however, that the process could mass produce carbon fiber cars that don't cost anything more than it does to produce our current cars. I'm hoping some manufacturer tries it.

Yep. Hybrid technology is really great when properly applied. It's only stupid when applied to a small car, and more stupid yet when applied to a small car that will see a mostly highway cruising. I see hybrids cruising the highways where I live where there's no city driving to speak of (since there are no cities) and I just shake my head.

Im usually either driving ~20 city miles in a day, or ~150 highway miles in a day. 95+% of my driving is highway, and i do it in the Insight, which is a hybrid.

Now, the hybrid bits ARENT the reason my Insight gets 50mpg on the highway. They arent helping me get better highway MPG. But without the hybrid bit, i wouldnt own this car, because the hybrid part is what ALLOWS it to have a tiny 50mpg motor and still have 'normal' acceleration. When i run down the hybrid battery (which only happens in the city, hmmm) the thing is intolerable to drive.

I think that what you are thinking of really only makes sense for hybrids that can propel themselves at low speeds without using the gas engine, like the prius and some others, but there are many hybrids that cant, and the 1g Insight is one of them.

Ditto. I see the PRii cruising between lafayette and Indianapolis everyday. Most are running upwards of 80mph, tailgaiting (brakelights flashing on as they are trying to push the pickup in front of them to go 85) and weaving through traffic. Now that is a great use of a hybrid.

I honestly think that it really is a great way to use a hybrid. I can drive like a lunatic and spend less per mile than 99% of the people on the road. I get 38-40mpg @95mph.

As for it NOT being what the car was designed for, fair enough. But what are the alternatives? The Prius' hybrid system may be optimized for lower-speed efficiency, but it's higher speed efficiency is STILL well above most other cars on the road. So when you see a Prius driver going 85 everywhere, it's not because they're using the car the wrong way, its probably because they didnt know of any other car that was more efficient at 85mph, and the low-speed efficiency is just a bonus for them.

If I could have a modern car with ~150hp, and an honest averaging of 30+USMPG, I'd be happy. 35 would be ideal.

Easy. Mazda3. I had and 04 2.0/auto w/~150hp, it avg'd 30mpg, got a minimum of 35 on the highway, and a maximum of 42. No hypermiling. No mods. If you drive mostly highway or are nice to it, 30-35 avg is in the bag.

It was, in every way, a perfectly normal, likable, livable modern car, and of course the aftermarket is pretty great.

The guys who built that car claim, however, that the process could mass produce carbon fiber cars that don't cost anything more than it does to produce our current cars. I'm hoping some manufacturer tries it.

VW has a cf production facility that can crank out the cf tub for it's XL1 concept at about $5-7K a pop, and its moving downwards.

So, i would say the future is mostly now.

Vigo wrote:

If I could have a modern car with ~150hp, and an honest averaging of 30+USMPG, I'd be happy. 35 would be ideal.

Easy. Mazda3. I had and 04 2.0/auto w/~150hp, it avg'd 30mpg, got a minimum of 35 on the highway, and a maximum of 42. No hypermiling. No mods. If you drive mostly highway or are nice to it, 30-35 avg is in the bag. It was, in every way, a perfectly normal, likable, livable modern car, and of course the aftermarket is pretty great.

My 2011 Hyundai Elantra has averaged 39.3 mpg so far and is rated at 150hp. Best interior room in class also.

Vigo wrote: As for it NOT being what the car was designed for, fair enough. But what are the alternatives?

I don;t shake my head because they do poorly. I shake my head because most of the gains the average driver I see will get have nothing to do with being a hybrid.

But somehow in the smug-idiocy demographic that is the market for modern small hybrids, if those changes are made to a non-hybrid, that car is crappy and cheap in their eyes. Add another motor or two and some batteries and those same other changes are instead brilliant.

1g Insights are somewhat a different case, but I never saw many of those, and have seen all of one in the past 5 years or so. As such, they're not the ones that I shake my head at on the highway. I'd be much more likely to smile at an Insight. People up here didn't buy them, but they have gotten sucked into the Prius and relatives hype.

I made the original post a few days ago and haven't had the chance until now to go through and read all the comments. Glad I stirred up a bunch of comments on the issue.

John Brown wrote:

failboat wrote: I dont think Ethanol has been brought up in this thread yet.

You should see the MPGs drop in Michigan when the fuel changes to winter blend... oy vey

Same here in Pennsylvania.

Over the winter I was getting 26-27mpg hwy, and my last tank pegged 33.5mpg. That is a major difference. I compare my mpgs because I make the same 150mi hwy trip pretty regularly.

In a V8 camaro with a body designed before 93, and engine before 97.

DILYSI Dave wrote: One BIG reason that mileage has not progressed is that emissions have. That 50mpg CRX HF was a gross polluter compared to a modern 40mpg car. Clean is relatively easy. Good mileage is relatively easy. Clean, with good mileage is much harder. I do wonder if it would be worthwhile to shift the octane standards up. For instance, we could be commuting in 14:1 cars if we had 100 Octane premium, and if so would the extra efficiency be worth the higher fuel cost?

I think the newest mazda sky engines (gas & diesel) both run 14:1 compression.

http://green.autoblog.com/2010/09/02/mazdas-uniquely-engineered-sky-engines-will-offer-best-in-class/

The ethanol topic did give me an idea for another thread or a way to continue this one. I have been taking a fuel science course over the last semester and learned a good bit about synthetic and conventional fuels.

Ethanol is EXTREMELY energy intensive to make and is promoted heavily here, but biodiesel has much better returns. Both in the production process and in the mpgs of the end vehicle. AND it nearly eliminates sulfur which seems to be the big emissions issue. Just need to find a good feed stock for it...

... i want e85 here :(... only because i'm building a MS'd turbo vehicle lol...

sorry nothing truly helpful to add other than i've managed to get better MPG while delivering pizza than it was rated for... granted FL is very flat... but stop go stop go... not great for MPG...

we managed 36mpg in an '03 or so taurus... when on the HW... almost 10mpg more than its rated to on HW... no silly driving just cruise control the entire way... slowing down with coast on cruise... that kinda thing... nothing silly like tailgating semis or stuff like that... and not exactly a small or lightweight car...

miatame wrote: I'm going to make a bumper sticker that cuts through all the passive-aggressiveness and says what all those liberals are thinking: "Hybrid - I'm better than you and I know it"

Stop making fuel efficiency a political thing - it's not- just like wanting clean air isn't a political thing.

I desire both of those things completely independently of my political leanings.

gamby wrote: Stop making fuel efficiency a political thing

Let them do it..

When they realize they've been priced out of the market, they'll come around. Like most conservatives It all starts and ends with their own personal wallet.

I don;t shake my head because they do poorly. I shake my head because most of the gains the average driver I see will get have nothing to do with being a hybrid. But somehow in the smug-idiocy demographic that is the market for modern small hybrids, if those changes are made to a non-hybrid, that car is crappy and cheap in their eyes. Add another motor or two and some batteries and those same other changes are instead brilliant. 1g Insights are somewhat a different case, but I never saw many of those, and have seen all of one in the past 5 years or so. As such, they're not the ones that I shake my head at on the highway. I'd be much more likely to smile at an Insight. People up here didn't buy them, but they have gotten sucked into the Prius and relatives hype.

Ok, gotcha.

I too wish that cars 'like' the 1g Insight had sold better. The VW XL1 i mentioned is the closest thing running right now to a modern take on what a 1g insight was. Frankly, all the other hybrids on the market are fairly dissimilar to it imo.

I do think that the Prius gets by on it's strengths to a large degree. If someone can stand a midsize toyota, in a general sense, than the Prius is kind of the best of them. It has the best mileage, probably best reliability, great versatility, etc. Perfect appliance. I think the percentage of Prius owners whose buying decision has nothing to do with 'hybrid' has gone up a whole lot over the decade it's been here.