6 vs. 8....

The BMW - but the video stresses that the Lincoln was only 0.8 mph behind, and that it hit a top speed that was 2 mph faster!

Hehe, that's my boss driving in that video.

Well not directly my boss, but his office is about 50 feet from my desk and his name is on the building.

jrw1621 wrote: So we are talking about the MKS which is that huge Ford Five Hundred sized car. I thought we were talking about the Zephyr (MKZ, Fusion, Mazda 6 derivative.) I have not done well keeping up with Lincoln's MK-? naming. Is this MKS supposed to be the sporty model?

Large MKS. The MKZ won't get this GTDI motor (although many of us wish it did- that would be totally awesome).

It's not "supposed" to be sporty, but the point here is that it is. Or at least sporty enough. It does drive pretty well, even with the power advantage, the handling has to be decent to get up that hill.

For the MKS, right now, I'm not aware of a sporty version being thought about. I really WISH WE WOULD, though. I just don't see many SHO crossing with MKS buyers and vice versa. (the SHO is more sporty)

E-

z31maniac wrote: Why not compare the american turbo 6 to the Bavarian turbo 6. Seems like a better comparison................

Had BMW pushed the 5 series with their GTDI motor, that would be a fair fight. As had we put our GTDI motor in the MKZ.

Engine to engine, I'll stack our 3.5l GTDI up against theirs any day- ours makes more power, and I should see if we are cleaner, too.

E-

speedblind wrote: And I'd also be interested in seeing how well a German turbo car would do against the Lincoln's six. The 3.5l twin-turbo engine is a gem in terms of drivability, power delivery, economy, etc. And there's a ton of power left on the table in stock form.

I would be happy to do that, too. IMHO, ours is better.

(and knowing what hardware BMW uses, there isn't as much power available as you might think- perhaps up to 400hp, but not much beyond that)

As for "fair" comparisons- find the 5 series, 500 series, large 4 door sedans that the MKS should have been up against. The 335 is a smaller car. It's not like a bunch of pansies were chosen- these were top of the line cars that cost tons more than the MKS.

ad said: It's not the irony part, but the frown at the end of the irony, implying a negative irony. It's my job to be touchy- haven't you figured that out, yet?

That's a not a "frown" smilie, it's the closest thing this forum has to the "thinking" smilie... This is a frown:

It just seems ironic how many years ago, we compared big American V8's to smaller, high-strung (sometimes turbocharged) European engines...in this comparison, the tables are turned.

Personally, I don't give a hoot one way or the other... wouldn't buy any of them...

Boost at Altatude? It may have already been said, but that is not a straight up contest.

Thanks for posting Eric,

I'm glad to see Lincoln making cars that can actually compete with the Germans. Sure the test may have been a bit slanted a bit, but finishing as strongly as it did is pretty impressive. Loveland pass is steep, needing horsepower to get up quickly, but it is also full of switchbacks, and hairy drop-offs with little or no room for error. To be as quick as it was, the Lincoln must be a pretty stable, confidence inspiring car.

None of these cars are on my wish list, but it is good to see American Iron competing, and holding it's own.

Ian F wrote:

ad said: It's not the irony part, but the frown at the end of the irony, implying a negative irony. It's my job to be touchy- haven't you figured that out, yet?

That's a not a "frown" smilie, it's the closest thing this forum has to the "thinking" smilie... This is a frown: It just seems ironic how many years ago, we compared big American V8's to smaller, high-strung (sometimes turbocharged) European engines...in this comparison, the tables are turned. Personally, I don't give a hoot one way or the other... wouldn't buy any of them...

Ok, couldn't tell that particular icon. Sorry about the implications.

E-

I tried to see this from the "fair fight" perspective but I just can't. Couldn't they find any german cars with 6 pots and turbos? No 335 or 535?, S4,5,6 or VW Passats available? Hell, I think that there Porsche turbo 6 in the cayanne would work in a pinch and it weighs 7klbs so it might not even win.

I'm not saying the Ford wouldn't do well - just that they didn't have the confidence to try so what does that say about what Ford thinks of that car?

Let's see... how about the 535i versus the new SHO taurus? I smell throwdown!

Edit: make that a 535Xi (AWD too! you gotta make it even!)

Autolex wrote: Let's see... how about the 535i versus the new SHO taurus? I smell throwdown!

That isn't fair either... the 535 is just the run-of-the-mill bavarian family hauler... the SHO is Fords hot rod. Pit it against the M5 :)

walterj wrote:

Autolex wrote: Let's see... how about the 535i versus the new SHO taurus? I smell throwdown!

That isn't fair either... the 535 is just the run-of-the-mill bavarian family hauler... the SHO is Fords hot rod. Pit it against the M5 :)

???

How expensive is a 535? I know an M5 is at least 3x as expensive as a SHO.

E

walterj wrote: I tried to see this from the "fair fight" perspective but I just can't. Couldn't they find any german cars with 6 pots and turbos? No 335 or 535?, S4,5,6 or VW Passats available? Hell, I think that there Porsche turbo 6 in the cayanne would work in a pinch and it weighs 7klbs so it might not even win. I'm not saying the Ford wouldn't do well - just that they didn't have the confidence to try so what does that say about what Ford thinks of that car?

So taking the top line luxury cars from Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, and Maserati isn't a fair fight? I like that view. Works really well.

Comparing a $55k Lincoln MKS to a +$75k Mercedes, BWM, Jaguar, and Maserati just isn't fair? I can totally deal with that.

I can really appreciate the idea that some of you think that our Lincoln and Taurus SHO products are SO superior at such a lower price point that it's not far to the expensive European hardware. Makes me feel good.

Thanks for the compliments.

Eric- Proud calibrator for 3.5l Ecoboost.

I'd just like to see how the the results would change had it been closer to sea level...

And I won't be happy until I see the 3.5L EcoBoost in an AWD Fusion. With a stripped interior and full race setup. With a manual tranny. In my driveway. With the title in my name. With no liens against it. Then I wouldn't have to lust after a GT-R.

Hrm... makes me wonder... Is the fusion in Forza 3?

Scardeal: If the car you described was actually a production vehicle and sold for $33k, Ford would have a hard time keeping them on dealers' lots.

alfadriver wrote:

walterj wrote: I tried to see this from the "fair fight" perspective but I just can't. Couldn't they find any german cars with 6 pots and turbos? No 335 or 535?, S4,5,6 or VW Passats available? Hell, I think that there Porsche turbo 6 in the cayanne would work in a pinch and it weighs 7klbs so it might not even win. I'm not saying the Ford wouldn't do well - just that they didn't have the confidence to try so what does that say about what Ford thinks of that car?

So taking the top line luxury cars from Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, and Maserati isn't a fair fight? I like that view. Works really well. Thanks for the compliments.

Oh... ok so its not about apples to apples... its about "top" cars? How about the top of the line GTO or Vette V8 then? Noooo... wait, too domestic to beat up on? How about the M3, M5 or M6? (those are "top" luxury cars). How about going a little down-market? Maybe a lowly Misu Evo? So, what was the criteria for comparison lessee... name a couple cars we think a puffer could beat at altitude? Nothing too quick mind you... we won't want to be last...

BTW - I didn't say I thought the car was bad - just the contrived test.

walterj wrote:

Autolex wrote: Let's see... how about the 535i versus the new SHO taurus? I smell throwdown!

That isn't fair either... the 535 is just the run-of-the-mill bavarian family hauler... the SHO is Fords hot rod. Pit it against the M5 :)

nah, the Ford GT is fords hot rod.

walterj wrote: Oh... ok so its not about apples to apples... its about "top" cars? How about the top of the line GTO or Vette V8 then? Noooo... wait, too domestic to beat up on? How about the M3, M5 or M6? (those are "top" luxury cars). How about going a little down-market? Maybe a lowly Misu Evo? So, what was the criteria for comparison lessee... name a couple cars we think a puffer could beat at altitude? Nothing too quick mind you... we won't want to be last... BTW - I didn't say I thought the car was bad - just the contrived test.

What do you mean by apples to apples? The BMW 550i and Mercedes 550 isn't good enough? Or are you saying that our engineering solution to a given technical challenge was so much better that it's not fair to compare a $50k Lincoln to a $90k BMW or Mercedes? (no reason to bring up the Ferrari engined Maserati- since it was the slow dog of them all)

You don't give ANY credit to being competetive with cars that are roughly equal in class? Not real performance options, but quite a lot of luxury?

Or do you really want to try to equate the very large and very luxurious Lincoln MKS with the M5? If that's what you are thinking would be a fair fight, I'm flattered by your implications, since the MKS really doesn't really pretend to be that sporty of a car. If Mercedes HAD to have an AMG version just to keep up with a lowly MKS... wow, stunning.

And even considering the M3 and Evo as competitors- again, the MKS isn't a car that's going to pretend to be a track car like those guys are. So since you think it would be a more fair fight- quite flattering for the MKS- thanks for the very strong compliment!!!

Finally- and MKS vs. a Vette? Wow, that's really going over the top in compliments, if you ask me. A car that recently won a ALMS race vs. a 4 door American Luxury sedan??? Wow, you really think highly of the MKS, don't you? Gotta love it!

Think about what you are saying- that the large v8 sedans that Mercedes, BMW, Jaguar, and Maserati are such slouches that it was not a fair fight, since we had a different engineering solution to a given problem. Mind you, NONE of the Europens have a turbo v6 in their top sized cars, so it's pretty hard to have a fair fight, as you seem to think.

So, considering what you want to run it against, I will take every single one of your compliments with very high regard, and pass them onto my fellow engineers who also worked on the project. I'm sure they will enjoy the idea that our solution was SO good that it wasn't a fair fight.

Eric

Autolex wrote: nah, the Ford GT is fords hot rod.

Yes it is... that car is sex - and not just ordinary sex... its the kind that people in porn have when the disco starts playing.

alfadriver wrote: ...lots of stuff...

There is real, actual competition in the 55-65k market, equiped with turbo charged six cylinder engines at around the same displacement that they passed right over to race N/A cars up a mountain waaay above sea level. There are many down market cars that would beat them all.

I am sure it is a fine car - its a silly test. Nobody looking at the 90k Benz is going to see the Lincoln as an option - but I might go see it if it whooped an S6 Turbo.

walterj wrote:

alfadriver wrote: ...lots of stuff...

There is real, actual competition in the 55-65k market, equiped with turbo charged six cylinder engines at around the same displacement that they passed right over to race N/A cars up a mountain waaay above sea level. There are many down market cars that would beat them all. I am sure it is a fine car - its a silly test. Nobody looking at the 90k Benz is going to see the Lincoln as an option - but I might go see it if it whooped an S6 Turbo.

And all of those cars in teh 55-65k market is smaller than the MKS. This is about the large luxury sedan market. Not about a lage luxury sedan vs.a small sports car or sports sedan.

All you hammer on being a silly test is that our solution is so much better than Mercedes NA 5.5l v8 that it was an unfair fight. I can deal with that all day long.

The MKS isn't pretending to be an M3 or even an M5 (nor is the SHO, but seems like some of you want to put it there). It's not an Evo, and it's not an S6. It's an American Luxury Sedan that has an engineering solution that gives it an advantge over equal sized (but not nearly equal $$) European luxury sedans that some of you put in very high regard.

So keep thinking it was unfair, I can deal with that. Contrived? Ask Automobile and Motor Trend what they thought would happen- seems like all of them cringed at the idea at first. But preceptions are not reality- just ask the guys who thought the Quatroportte would be the fastest- when it was actually the slowest.

This is about going after preceptions. Seems like it does a great job at that.

Eric

Even more proud 3.5l Ecoboost engineer.

alfadriver wrote: ...even more words...

It is the greatest car in the whole universe to ever come in 2nd to a BMW racing up a hill waay above sea level in a vain attempt to justify itself as more than just a car that 80yr old cigar smoking guys in fedoras buy because they can't afford a Cadillac.

Congratulations. I hear the motor is awesome. They should stuff it into something small, rwd and sexy :)

I think what makes it not a fair fight is that the test was obviously designed to favor a particular car. It's like someone sat down and said "how can we tilt the playing field? We have a car that will be affected by altitude far less than any of the big-engined competitors, so let's design a horsepower course at the highest altitude we can manage in the US".

I don't know what cars are the intended competition to the Lincoln because I don't pay attention to that market segment at all. But looking at the cars, their engines and the chosen venue makes it quite clear what's going on.

Run it again at sea level. I don't know who's going to win, but I do know it'll be a more legitimate test.

You guys make me laugh. We take 4 world class sedans from Europe that all cost a ton, and we manage to come up with a single test that shows that our car is not just barely competetive with it at a fraction of the cost, and you still find excuses why it was so good relatively.

It just keeps telling me that we chose a very good engineering solution for a car that isn't supposed to be a sports sedan but a performance luxury sedan.

No credit at all for decent handling for what is generously a land barge in the eyes of this board. It's all "an unfair advantage". No credit at all for some serious performance at a pretty good bargin all in all.

Again, the point is to change preceptions, and none of you even give the MKS with EcoBoost a glimmer of hope. It's gotta be fixed, since it totally upsets your vision of reality. Sorry guys, this is top of the line Lincoln vs. an equal sized European sedan- all of them should have been better. Reality is changing. Caddilac started it with the CTS, and now we've got a MKS.

Anyway, thanks for the compliments- to even think that we had to have fixed the competition to be competetive just tells me we are doing the right job.

Eric