60K Mile Honda Odyssey needs Rings????!!!

OK, My Mom bought a certified Used Odyssey mini van from the local Honda Dealer , and it has 60 K on the clock. The other day she threw a check engine light (emissions). They claim it needs rings. Now, she has an extended warranty, so she's not out $$$, but I believe this is a case of Fraud, her van is fine, and they have no intention of replacing the rings. They reset the code, and now there are no CELs on. I advised her to drive it, and wait for the light to come back on (I suspect the fuel cap was loose). Does anyone have any ammo for my visit? Here's my thought process;

1. ask to see what it blew on their compression test (this engine has cylinder cut out)

2. Take it to a neighboring Honda dealer for a check-up (its a HONDA extended Warranty)

3. Never , ever let these people turn a wrench on another vehicle of ours (I have a horror story or two on my '09 Fit involving the same dealership)

Do no. 1. What explanation did they give her or you why they would suspect the piston rings? Well, do all three, and add a fourth. Tell people that you know to never go to that dealer to buy a car. Outright lying to customers to make profits is not what's good for society.

It's this kind of thing that made me get out of being a service writer. Dishonest mechanics suck, and the people at the top often don't care since the dishonest mechanics are the ones flagging ridiculous hours and making tons of money.

A dishonest (or at least really stupid) mechanic is why I just got my really clean Grand Cherokee for $500 (and that's only because I paid her double what she was asking). Lady was told the engine (that the SAME shop) just rebuilt a year ago was bad again and they would cover half the $4k quoted cost as "one of the cylinders had gone oval".

An hour and $8 later I replaced the broken exhaust valve spring.

I can't see a 60k mile car needing rings unless it was horribly abused and should not have passed the CPO process.

Kenny_McCormic wrote: I can't see a 60k mile car needing rings unless it was horribly abused and should not have passed the CPO process.

Or it isn't really a 60k mile car/engine.

I would definitely want to see some compression readings to justify new rings. 60k is barely broken in on most Hondas.

Before jumping to conclusion, perhaps there's a legit reason here. What code did it have? Is this a service bulletin or known issue on this engine? Lexus has issues with piston rings in their 2.5 and 3.0 direct injected v6's that cause excessive oil in the intake that results in carbon buildup on the intake valves. This ultimately causes a misfire as the valve doesn't seal properly. These cars typically drive fine, and would randomly throw a misfire code. Solution was new pistons and rings.

A dealership that's scamming warrenty will get audited in short order, it's not like it's a blank check. A technician working over warrenty would typically try to do a bunch if small items low in parts costs, with a hour or two of labor. A 25hr labor claim will immediately raise a red flag from corporate. No dealership that wants to stay open longer than a month or two, would allow the cost of repair per vehicle way out of wack for no reason. There's more to this story

In reply to TGMF:

What he (she?) said.

Thanks, all. Taking a deep breath before anything...

Got a code reader of your own? If not, go get one. Check it yourself when it throws another code. Proceed accordingly.

Not enough of a story to say yea or nay to the needing rings. It could, but shouldn't. No reason to think it does just on one check engine light illumination.

Yes, trying another dealership in the future for service probably is a good idea.

I thought Honda was warrantying a certain year Accord for excessive oil consumption. It think it was replace rings?

Accords, TSX/s and anything else with the 2.4L. The 3.2/3.5L V6 had head issues. I would NOT be surprised that this vehicle really did need rings. Honda's quality had gone down the toilet in the last 10 years.

Datsun1500 wrote: Is it using oil? There was a class action lawsuit over the honda v6 motor. Symptoms were oil usage, and misfire. The repair was new rings. I hate to say it, but there is a chance it actually needs the repair. I guess it's more fun to blame the Dealer, call it a scam, and insult the employees though

This!!!!

I read up on this a while back. I was actually surprised it did not get more air time here at GRM.

Datsun1500 wrote: Is it using oil? There was a class action lawsuit over the honda v6 motor. Symptoms were oil usage, and misfire. The repair was new rings. I hate to say it, but there is a chance it actually needs the repair. I guess it's more fun to blame the Dealer, call it a scam, and insult the employees though

Bingo. Damn Stealer Scum!

I used to be a service adviser at a Honda dealer. I was there just last week talking to some friends who still work there. They were telling me about a class action suit where they were having to replace the rings in 3 of the cylinders of the V6 motors. They had a tech doing almost exclusively that right not. Definitely something you should check into.

Believe it or not, per the class action settlement, they only replace rings in 3 of the cylinders. They don't pull the motor, just the oil pan and one cylinder head. No honing of the cylinder walls. Just put in new rings, and roll it.

I don't know anything about the cause of the issue, but I'm guessing the rings on that bank of cylinders never seated properly.

Datsun1500 wrote: I guess it's more fun to blame the Dealer, call it a scam, and insult the employees though

Agreed. Often the dealership gets put in the middle of warranty issues and ends up being the punching bag. The consumer gets mad at the dealership/service writer because that's the face of the bad news. But the dealership has to follow the manufacturers marching orders. So if the service adviser knows a particular issue won't be covered by warranty... or knows that the warranty requires trying to simpler less expensive fix first... then that's what he has to do. Even if he personally disagrees or knows its going to make the consumer mad.

I own a '08 odyssey with the VCM engine, and have...intimate product knowleged...

Anyway, they use oil. Shortly after buying mine used in 2013 I got a letter informing me that the engine warranty would be extended because of some engines were having oil consumption issues. I personally know one person that ruined an engine by not topping off.

It's not a surprise to me that the engine might need rings.

Datsun1500 wrote:

bigmackloud wrote: Agreed. Often the dealership gets put in the middle of warranty issues and ends up being the punching bag.

In this case the repair IS covered under warranty and the OP still thinks the Dealer is trying to pull something.

Yeah, I can't seem to figure that one out. We still get that here. People are getting a free repair. They get a loaner vehicle while their's is getting repaired and yet they're still mad at the dealer. Not that manufacturer, the dealer. How the hell does that even work? Is it just ingrained into people's psyche that all dealer are all crooked all the time always?

Bobzilla wrote: Is it just ingrained into people's psyche that all dealer are all crooked all the time always?

Yea, thanks to all the horror "undercover" rip-off stories that the news channels do, people often feel like they don't know who they can trust. And unfortunately there are a lot of dishonest people out there too. Gives even the good dealers a bad rep.

The OP mentioned that it was his mothers vehicle, so I'm guessing perhaps all the information wasn't relayed properly (dealer to mother, mother to son, son to us).

It think he was on the right track about wanting more information and perhaps a second opinion before having such a major repair done. Though assuming the dealership was committing fraud was probably an unfair assumption. And if you've had "horror" stories dealing with this dealer before... why are you continuing to do business with them?

Related story from my years at the dealer...

Wasn't my customer but apparently a daughter comes in for an oil change. Tech mentions her brake pads are getting low and will have to be addressed at a future point. Daughter knows nothing about cars, goes home and tells her dad the dealer said she has to have new brakes. Dad takes car to another shop, who tells him she doesn't need brakes right now. Dad freaks out hard core. Literally comes flying into the service dept, squealing tires in the service lane, cussing and yelling on a Saturday afternoon as we are closing. Makes a HUGE scene. He feels the dealer was trying to "take advantage of a young girl by using scare tactics that she needed brakes." And he's making sure everyone knows it. He demands to speak to the owner... yea right, I can assure you the owner nor the service manager are there on a Saturday afternoon at closing time. Guy insists that he watch as the tech puts the car on the lift and has the brakes inspected. I guess he thought the tech as going to sneak on a worn out set of brake pads if he let the car out of his sight, haha. He literally waited until the service manager drove to the dealership that night so they could all look at the car together. In the end, the brakes really were getting low, but not such that they were an immediate danger. Daughter just didn't understand/communicate that properly to her hot-headed dad.

Another catch 22. You give the customer a heads up on future repairs, and they assume you're trying to take advantage of them, selling them something they don't need.

bigmackloud wrote: Related story from my years at the dealer... Wasn't my customer but apparently a daughter comes in for an oil change. Tech mentions her brake pads are getting low and will have to be addressed at a future point. Daughter knows nothing about cars, goes home and tells her dad the dealer said she has to have new brakes. Dad takes car to another shop, who tells him she doesn't need brakes right now. Dad freaks out hard core. Literally comes flying into the service dept, squealing tires in the service lane, cussing and yelling on a Saturday afternoon as we are closing. Makes a HUGE scene. He feels the dealer was trying to "take advantage of a young girl by using scare tactics that she needed brakes." And he's making sure everyone knows it. He demands to speak to the owner... yea right, I can assure you the owner nor the service manager are there on a Saturday afternoon at closing time. Guy insists that he watch as the tech puts the car on the lift and has the brakes inspected. I guess he thought the tech as going to sneak on a worn out set of brake pads if he let the car out of his sight, haha. He literally waited until the service manager drove to the dealership that night so they could all look at the car together. In the end, the brakes really were getting low, but not such that they were an immediate danger. Daughter just didn't understand/communicate that properly to her hot-headed dad. Another catch 22. You give the customer a heads up on future repairs, and they assume you're trying to take advantage of them, selling them something they don't need.

That information always leaves the shop on paper. Never word of mouth, particularly if its someone who doesn't really understand whats going on.

Agreed. We were supposed to attach our 22-point inspection sheet to every ticket, and the customer always got a copy. It wasn't my customer... and I certainly wasn't going to get involved... so I'm not sure what happened. Maybe the tech didn't turn in the check sheet... maybe the service adviser didn't attach a copy... maybe the dad never looked at it. But there was a break down in communication somewhere.

Well from what I have heard here this may be a thing and I stand corrected that this ring repair might well be needed. This is why I appreciate this forum as a repository of knowledge.

Datsun1500 wrote: Is it using oil? There was a class action lawsuit over the honda v6 motor. Symptoms were oil usage, and misfire. The repair was new rings. I hate to say it, but there is a chance it actually needs the repair. I guess it's more fun to blame the Dealer, call it a scam, and insult the employees though

Yeah, My Brother dug up that info also- it appears to be a thing. It is fun to bag on dealers, but this dealer has given me reason with how my Fit , which was purchased new off their lot was handled.

I'm just relieved I took a deep breath before going down there with blood in my eye. Again, thanks all.

I'm the brother of the OP...so I know a little of both sides here. This dealership's service department doesn't have the greatest rep, espcially within our family. Side story...Our sister had a 94 civic that she overheated the crap (radiator cap melted and spark plug mires melted)out of many years ago. They (probably rightfully so???) wouldn't even look at anything other than replacing the engine...They just opened the hood and saw the stuff melted (maybe that was the correct thing to do to proctecty their customer and reputation???). She was broke at the time, so I removed the head and had it machined, put a new head gasket, radiator, etc on and it ran like a new car. Except I didn't think to change the distributor and the bearing in it locked up from getting so hot about a week later. Dealer wanted ~$4000 for a used motor or $6000 for a new motor plus install at the time (1997 if I remember). I think I had about $600 in it by the time I fixed it. Add this to my brother's experiences with his Fit anlong with a few other friend's expiences, it is easy to be a little skeptical, or at least want to check it out before you jump in without some confirmation.

Anyway, apparently the 2008-2010 V-6 hondas with VCL had an oil consumption problem that can cause anything from emissions lights to go on up to an engine failure (very rare). The theory is that the pistons that cut off cool down more than the others and the rings start rotating and can line up the gaps and cause the oils consumption. I'm getting two different listings for fixes: replaces the rings (only on the cylinder that cut out) with lower tension rings to hold the cylinder wall better (not sure why that wouldn't be higher tension, but I'm not an internal combustion engine engineer??), and part 2 is a reprogramming to make the VCL not kick in and out and much (apparently on flat ground it kicks in and out a lot??).

Newer model V-6's appaently have a different honing on the cylinder walls, different (coated) pistions, the lower tension rings, and the reprogrammed VCL activation.

I never knew this or even thought about this on these Hondas...