In about 3 weeks I'll tell all y'all all kinds of goodies about this topic.
In about 3 weeks I'll tell all y'all all kinds of goodies about this topic.
60k and new rings for a Honda....
Yea, oh so very reliable.
The cars are supposed to last 120k miles and continue to meet emissions, which means that the rings SHOULD last at least that long or longer.
Not making an opinion of the dealer, but an opinion of the posts that suggest that it's ok that the rings need changed. It may be correct that the rings need changed, but that's not ok. That's bad. Very bad.
How does Honda get away with that? If that happened on a GM or Ford product, there would be hearings over it.
alfadriver wrote: 60k and new rings for a Honda.... Yea, oh so very reliable. The cars are supposed to last 120k miles and continue to meet emissions, which means that the rings SHOULD last at least that long or longer. Not making an opinion of the dealer, but an opinion of the posts that suggest that it's ok that the rings need changed. It may be *correct* that the rings need changed, but that's not ok. That's bad. Very bad. How does Honda get away with that? If that happened on a GM or Ford product, there would be hearings over it.
I've been saying those exact same things for about .... oh.... 10 years.
tedium850 wrote: I'm the brother of the OP...so I know a little of both sides here. This dealership's service department doesn't have the greatest rep, espcially within our family. Side story...Our sister had a 94 civic that she overheated the crap (radiator cap melted and spark plug mires melted)out of many years ago. They (probably rightfully so???) wouldn't even look at anything other than replacing the engine...They just opened the hood and saw the stuff melted (maybe that was the correct thing to do to proctecty their customer and reputation???). She was broke at the time, so I removed the head and had it machined, put a new head gasket, radiator, etc on and it ran like a new car. Except I didn't think to change the distributor and the bearing in it locked up from getting so hot about a week later. Dealer wanted ~$4000 for a used motor or $6000 for a new motor plus install at the time (1997 if I remember). I think I had about $600 in it by the time I fixed it.
My wife badly overheated a Subaru Justy years ago. I did exactly what you did but guess what? The damage was done. It was OK for a time but power gradually dropped off as the miles added up. When I finally put a gauge on it, cylinder pressures were 30/60/90. It's amazing it ran at all. Clearly the motor was truly smoked when she overheated it. I just stopped the bleeding for a time.
This dealership may be the worst ever but I find it hard to fault their response here. Based on your parenthetical comments, I think you see it too. They could easily have done a cylinder head R&R, skim, etc. for $2k or whatever, and found themselves with a pissed off customer coming back time after time with collateral problems from the overheat.
""
In reply to mfennell:
Agreed, sometimes the only answer is a full replacement.....especially if you don't want that.
I don't recall all the details of my sister's car, but seems like I did a compression check after I put the head on and it was within spec. I didn't do a leakdown, so it may have been toast. After the distributor went, it scared her, she sold the car, and she swore off owning Honda's for years because of the two breakdowns within a month...
Those brekdown were neither the fault of the Honda or the dealer. Could they have handled it better? Honestly it doesn't matter now because it is water under the bridge and we have dealt with the dealer again with various levels of satisfaction. Buying a car or parts from a dealer is different (sometimes) than having one serviced. I'm not here to bash them as service departments (and dealers in general) have people in them and they are people, as am I, and we all make mistakes. I've made MORE than my share in my lifetime, especially concerning vehicles.
As for mom's van, it IS unacceptable for a 60k mile van that has been taken care of to need rings reguardless of the manufacturer...guess that's why there is/was the class action lawsuit. In the end both my brother and I want the best service and least amount of hastle for her. I seriously doubt that any of you are any different.
Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.
alfadriver wrote: 60k and new rings for a Honda.... Yea, oh so very reliable. The cars are supposed to last 120k miles and continue to meet emissions, which means that the rings SHOULD last at least that long or longer. Not making an opinion of the dealer, but an opinion of the posts that suggest that it's ok that the rings need changed. It may be *correct* that the rings need changed, but that's not ok. That's bad. Very bad. How does Honda get away with that? If that happened on a GM or Ford product, there would be hearings over it.
This isn't a Honda thing, literally every manufacturer has problems like this. You may hear about it less on a honda or Toyota but it happens to everyone.
The reason you hear about some of these things less is because of perception. The uninformed masses think toyota/honda/insert Manufacturer here are reliable and so when E36 M3 like this happens it's just something that happens with cars, they got it fixed who cares? But when it happens to a domestic or perceived unreliable Marque it's the worst vehicle ever. Perception is reality as far as auto manufacturers are concerned.
Also dealers/big shops will not help you out anymore. There is too much liability in, you can clearly explain to someone that if you do x repairs to try and save them money and hopefully it works and if not it's on them, doesn't matter it's your baby now, might as well do it right or not at all. Plus labor is too expensive nowadays to be removing and checking things when a cst is being billed. You pull a head to check for damage to pistons and bores and you could be in it a couple hundred dollars and it still need a motor.
In reply to Datsun1500:
Absolutely. Shops I used to work at, you say lawyer, sue, fraud, or accuse us of taking advantage of you because your a women, etc, here is your keys have a good day.
Shops/dealers get blamed for everything anyways, way more bad than good cames from taking on customers that do that.
Some shops deserve all the blame they get, but I genuinely believe the vast majority of mechanics are not out to get you, or do unnecessary repairs/maintenance.
Hold on...
. No one has offically accused the dealer of fraud. My brother had a few bad expierences with THIS dealer on his Fit, coupled with friends with bad expiences, coupled with a past expience with my sister that may or may not have been bad (it was bad to her at the time, even though she holds a lot of the fault in her particular car failure). Add all that up and throw on a "new" van with 60k needing rings?? All he was doing was asking a question to a trusted/unbiased group, and yes he said he suspected fraud because all the above seemed to not add up. After looking at all the facts...what do you know...the "new" van does probably need rings and the dealer is right...no fraud.
In reply to tedium850:
wheelsmithy wrote: Now, she has an extended warranty, so she's not out $$$, but I believe this is a case of Fraud, her van is fine, and they have no intention of replacing the rings.
I'm sorry, you were saying? From the first post in this thread.
Another view of the issue- even IF the standard waranty was out, there's still the emissions requirement, which normally waranties the entire system out to 80k miles. And since the rings are clearly an emissions device, it should be totally covered.
What year of van is this?
If Honda does not cover it, I would mention a call to the EPA. That they should know that there's a clear emissions failure at such short milage... maybe that will get a service center going.
IF (note the cap IF) that is the actual issue.
alfadriver wrote: Another view of the issue- even IF the standard waranty was out, there's still the emissions requirement, which normally waranties the entire system out to 80k miles. And since the rings are clearly an emissions device, it should be totally covered. What year of van is this? If Honda does not cover it, I would mention a call to the EPA. That they should know that there's a clear emissions failure at such short milage... maybe that will get a service center going. IF (note the cap IF) that is the actual issue.
This IS a common issue. Most of the Honda shops here are running 2 guys on this problem alone. That's all they touch. Yank head, pan and pull the pistons and reinstall. Doing 2-3 cars per person per day 5 days a week.
Bobzilla wrote: Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.
You know, it's gotten to the point that I am a bit leery of taking my family to the Greater Indianapolis Area...for fear of us looking over and seeing you humping a Hyundai sign.
JFX001 wrote:Bobzilla wrote: Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.You know, it's gotten to the point that I am a bit leery of taking my family to the Greater Indianapolis Area...for fear of us looking over and seeing you humping a Hyundai sign.
Troll much? Get your E36 M3 straight sonny. I don't even own a Hyundai anymore. IF you don't want to hear facts or truth about your beloved brands, then don't ask questions. This isn't about Hyundai. This isn't about Toyota. This is about E36 M3ty quality that gets accepted from Honda.
Bobzilla wrote:JFX001 wrote:Troll much? Get your E36 M3 straight sonny. I don't even own a Hyundai anymore. IF you don't want to hear facts or truth about your beloved brands, then don't ask questions. This isn't about Hyundai. This isn't about Toyota. This is about E36 M3ty quality that gets accepted from Honda.Bobzilla wrote: Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.You know, it's gotten to the point that I am a bit leery of taking my family to the Greater Indianapolis Area...for fear of us looking over and seeing you humping a Hyundai sign.
We've been over this before, you're like the Minister Of Information for Hyundai...not trolling, my '03 Odyssey hasn't needed two transmissions or the power steering rebuilt, and it's right at 126K.
JFX001 wrote:Bobzilla wrote:We've been over this before, you're like the Minister Of Information for Hyundai...not trolling, my '03 Odyssey hasn't needed two transmissions or the power steering rebuilt, and it's right at 126K.JFX001 wrote:Troll much? Get your E36 M3 straight sonny. I don't even own a Hyundai anymore. IF you don't want to hear facts or truth about your beloved brands, then don't ask questions. This isn't about Hyundai. This isn't about Toyota. This is about E36 M3ty quality that gets accepted from Honda.Bobzilla wrote: Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.You know, it's gotten to the point that I am a bit leery of taking my family to the Greater Indianapolis Area...for fear of us looking over and seeing you humping a Hyundai sign.
So you got one of the few good ones. Good job. Doesn't change the facts. Plus the fact that your 03 has about as much in common with the '08 in this thread as my Forte does a Sephia.
Bobzilla wrote:JFX001 wrote:So you got one of the few good ones. Good job. Doesn't change the facts. Plus the fact that your 03 has about as much in common with the '08 in this thread as my Forte does a Sephia.Bobzilla wrote:We've been over this before, you're like the Minister Of Information for Hyundai...not trolling, my '03 Odyssey hasn't needed two transmissions or the power steering rebuilt, and it's right at 126K.JFX001 wrote:Troll much? Get your E36 M3 straight sonny. I don't even own a Hyundai anymore. IF you don't want to hear facts or truth about your beloved brands, then don't ask questions. This isn't about Hyundai. This isn't about Toyota. This is about E36 M3ty quality that gets accepted from Honda.Bobzilla wrote: Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.You know, it's gotten to the point that I am a bit leery of taking my family to the Greater Indianapolis Area...for fear of us looking over and seeing you humping a Hyundai sign.
You just need to back up your words. Give me numbers of Odyssey's that needed two transmissions by 100K. Documented. Percentage wise based on total production. I'll wait.
Honda's have problems just like every other manufacturer. But every single thread about Honda you jump in and bash. The E36 M3's getting old.
Come on guys, We all work on cars, We know they ALL suck, except Ford, they extra suck. I kid I kid.
Take it to another honda dealer and see if you get the same answer. It's easier than dealing with a dealer you don't trust. If you don't trust them, why do you keep taking things to them?
In reply to Bobzilla:
Sorry, I guess what I'm trying to say is that no one has gone to the BBB to report them. And I paraphrased that he "suspected" fraud.
On the other subjects of Honda quality and Hyundai quality over the last 5-10 years, I have to say I agree with you...and I am/was a Honda/Acura fanboi of the 70's/80's/90's. I have been working on a friends 03 oydessy van replacing most of the power steering over the last month or so and have seen a couple other with the same problems - and I don't really mechanic any more, just help out friends in need.
Back on subject...From what I can tell what "should" happen before Honda will agree to replace the rings is that the dealer will drain and measure the oil, have mom drive for 1000 miles, and repeat for "x" number of times to get a true oil consumption reading on her van to determine how bad it is (or if there is a problem). If it is within limits, then, tough (or there is a separate problem and we are barking up the wrong tree 
). If it is above the norm (I think I read average is about 1 quart + per 2000 miles). I think my brother told me mom has an appointment at the dealer Monday to discuss...
JFX001 wrote:Bobzilla wrote:You just need to back up your words. Give me numbers of Odyssey's that needed two transmissions by 100K. Documented. Percentage wise based on total production. I'll wait. Honda's have problems just like every other manufacturer. But every single thread about Honda you jump in and bash. The E36 M3's getting old.JFX001 wrote:So you got one of the few good ones. Good job. Doesn't change the facts. Plus the fact that your 03 has about as much in common with the '08 in this thread as my Forte does a Sephia.Bobzilla wrote:We've been over this before, you're like the Minister Of Information for Hyundai...not trolling, my '03 Odyssey hasn't needed two transmissions or the power steering rebuilt, and it's right at 126K.JFX001 wrote:Troll much? Get your E36 M3 straight sonny. I don't even own a Hyundai anymore. IF you don't want to hear facts or truth about your beloved brands, then don't ask questions. This isn't about Hyundai. This isn't about Toyota. This is about E36 M3ty quality that gets accepted from Honda.Bobzilla wrote: Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.You know, it's gotten to the point that I am a bit leery of taking my family to the Greater Indianapolis Area...for fear of us looking over and seeing you humping a Hyundai sign.
Get your panties undwadded. Our dealer AND the one just down the street are running these newer V6's through with a huge wait. Sorry that doesn't fit your preconceived notions but it is fact.
Bobzilla wrote:JFX001 wrote:Get your panties undwadded. Our dealer AND the one just down the street are running these newer V6's through with a huge wait. Sorry that doesn't fit your preconceived notions but it is fact.Bobzilla wrote:You just need to back up your words. Give me numbers of Odyssey's that needed two transmissions by 100K. Documented. Percentage wise based on total production. I'll wait. Honda's have problems just like every other manufacturer. But every single thread about Honda you jump in and bash. The E36 M3's getting old.JFX001 wrote:So you got one of the few good ones. Good job. Doesn't change the facts. Plus the fact that your 03 has about as much in common with the '08 in this thread as my Forte does a Sephia.Bobzilla wrote:We've been over this before, you're like the Minister Of Information for Hyundai...not trolling, my '03 Odyssey hasn't needed two transmissions or the power steering rebuilt, and it's right at 126K.JFX001 wrote:Troll much? Get your E36 M3 straight sonny. I don't even own a Hyundai anymore. IF you don't want to hear facts or truth about your beloved brands, then don't ask questions. This isn't about Hyundai. This isn't about Toyota. This is about E36 M3ty quality that gets accepted from Honda.Bobzilla wrote: Also shouldn't need 2 transmissions by 100k either, or powersteering systems reuilt every 60k. But that's not stopping Honda's quality.You know, it's gotten to the point that I am a bit leery of taking my family to the Greater Indianapolis Area...for fear of us looking over and seeing you humping a Hyundai sign.
Again, back up your words. Give me the percentage of Odyssey's needing 2 transmissions by 100K. You said it, you should be able to back it up with proof.
Let me just admit it. I was Wrong.
I believe in some societies, I would be absolved of all wrong -doing once I did that.
I edited my original post to delete the dealer's name and location. Now, if anyone wants to rake me over the coals because I made a poor ASSumption about a dealer with whom I have had poor dealings, so be it. I had very little knowledge of my sister's plight back in the 90's, and based my judgement solely on the less than stellar experiences I have had there, along with, perhaps an exaggerated desire to protect my Mother.
This is why I spoke here, at GRM. And I got exactly what I needed- several voices of reason, to keep me sensible in a situation in which I was a little too emotionally involved to be 100% rational. To all the voices of reason-Thank You. To all offended, Try not to judge me too harshly- I don't believe I'm the first to talk a little trash on the internet.
Bobzilla wrote: In about 3 weeks I'll tell all y'all all kinds of goodies about this topic.
You've got mail.
tedium850 wrote: The theory is that the pistons that cut off cool down more than the others and the rings start rotating and can line up the gaps and cause the oils consumption. I'm getting two different listings for fixes: replaces the rings (only on the cylinder that cut out) with lower tension rings to hold the cylinder wall better (not sure why that wouldn't be higher tension, but I'm not an internal combustion engine engineer??),
Makes sense to me, the rings may be wearing out more rapidly, so lower tension rings may hold up better when the cylinders are not firing.
It's interesting, to be sure. I'd never thought about the thermal ramifications of killing half of the cylinders on a V6, since any firing order will dictate that it has to be an entire bank, not like V8s where you still have active cylinders on both banks.
You'll need to log in to post.
