In reply to Tom_Spangler :
Mustang is the best seller and makes ford money with its high price point and it's something they cling to as a part of their history so I expect it will not go anywhere. They may bastardize the name for other products. But I expect a 2 Dr coupe RWD will always be a mustang.
Javelin said:dculberson said:Javelin said:Except the S550 Mustang is better at everything than the 6th Gen Camaro like for like
Except for weight, and lap times. The Camaro trounces the Mustang in both those categories.
I'm a Mustang guy, but the Camaro has its advantages.
The SS 1LE might be able to lay one lap down better than a GT350R, but then it will cook the brakes and diff and blue the side airbags. There's a reason you don't see hardly any Camaros on track...
The major problem with that statement is that GM warranties the cars on track. Ford isn't a guarantee and you're also talking 2 cars $10k apart in price. And the voodoo motors are eating oil... none of the race motors use the flat place crank...
I love the mustang.. But saying that it's a better track car off the showroom floor is false
My very good friend just ran his ZL1 1LE on track for 10 hours hot swapping sessions with his wife for SCCA time trials for both high Plains and heartland pack back to back weekends. They drove the car from houston on RS4's to Colorado.. Farted around the Rockies for the week. Went to heartland this past weekend and then drove home.
GM's 1LE products do work on track.
spacecadet said:Javelin said:dculberson said:Javelin said:Except the S550 Mustang is better at everything than the 6th Gen Camaro like for like
Except for weight, and lap times. The Camaro trounces the Mustang in both those categories.
I'm a Mustang guy, but the Camaro has its advantages.
The SS 1LE might be able to lay one lap down better than a GT350R, but then it will cook the brakes and diff and blue the side airbags. There's a reason you don't see hardly any Camaros on track...
The major problem with that statement is that GM warranties the cars on track. Ford isn't a guarantee and you're also talking 2 cars $10k apart in price. And the voodoo motors are eating oil... none of the race motors use the flat place crank...
I love the mustang.. But saying that it's a better track car off the showroom floor is false
My very good friend just ran his ZL1 1LE on track for 10 hours hot swapping sessions with his wife for SCCA time trials for both high Plains and heartland pack back to back weekends. They drove the car from houston on RS4's to Colorado.. Farted around the Rockies for the week. Went to heartland this past weekend and then drove home.
GM's 1LE products do work on track.
Except there is basically a $25k difference between both cars. With no options, the SS 1LE MSRP is 44.5k. The GT350R with no options is $68k.
That's quite a jump in price.
STM317 said:I just think we're at a point where performance of just about everything is considered "good enough" now so there's less demand for a brand new pony car with capabilities that the average person can't even tickle on normal roads, and more demand for functional vehicles like CUVs. It seems like everything has 300hp now. Everything is safe. Everything can do 90mph with the AC on full blast. Everything except Italian stuff has a pretty good chance of doing 100k miles with little drama. So it comes down to styling (which Chevy has sucked at) and functionality (which Camaro sucks at).
Also, no matter what product you make, if you want to sell a lot of them, it has to be easy to use. For vehicles, that means being able to fit in it and see out of it. The Camaro seems to have issues in that regard for large percentages of the population. In general it seems like the young guys that lust after pony cars for their performance can't afford to buy them new, and the older people that can afford them often have old bodies or things like families that make spending $40k on an impractical, fun car a tough sell.
If you look at sales of something like a Miata or Cayman There's still demand for new, impractical, fun cars from a dedicated few but it's probably about 10k units/yr mark instead of the 30-40k/yr that GM probably needs to make a business case for the Camaro.
Lot of truth here.
I agree the Camaro rear seats are not the best, particularly for the size of the vehicle. I'm not sure the E46 was a 2+2, it was just a small coupe. I think the problem with 2+2 is that people are no longer willing to make any compromises. The RX-8 could probably be defined as a 4-seater with coupe sizing, but even that wasn't pratical enough for most. People seem to worry about the 1 day a year edge case instead of the normal use, which is 1 person 90%+ of the time. "Oh no, a friend might be slightly uncomfortable for a short period, 1 day of the year." Or in the case of a pure 2 seater, you might have to take your other half's car, or your friend might have to drive their car for the group, instead of you. I'm 6'5" and proportional, the Mustang seat can go back much further than necessary. The Camaro has good head room, but the seat behind me is useless, although in a pinch I could certainly use up less space and squeeze someone back there.
The interior on the base Mustang is MUCH worse than the base Camaro.
The Mustang GT PP1 and PP2 are the competitors to the SS/SS 1LE. The Mustangs have no diff cooler, which begs the question why the PP2 comes with track tires. The SS has a crazy number and size of coolers.
I'm not sure either of them is anything to write home about in terms of general reliability.
I think that Chevy is somewhat forgetting their audience. The Camaro is a pretty sophisticated car mechanically, but most muscle car buyers don't care about the sophistication. Compared to the Dodge Muscle, Camaros have fussy styling, lousy visibility and less backseat space. Meanwhile, Japanese and German car buyers still see Camaros as blunt objects that they'd never consider buying.
I'm concerned that they may be doing the same thing with the Corvette. Most traditional Vette owners don't want a middie, and most Eurojap owners don't want American.
Snrub said:I'm not sure either of them is anything to write home about in terms of general reliability.
To be fair, I think your experience is a very far outlier vs anything that would be considered normal.
Emotionally, I want the Mustang/Camaro/Challenger rivalry to continue forever, but business says eventually one will probably lose.
Emotionally, I also don't want to believe EV's will some day outsell ICE cars. Then I remember I've been saying my next new car will likely be an EV - when a manufacturer eventually builds the one I want. The VW Buzz in 2022 looks close so far, but since I haven't seen one in person, who knows.
Chrysler is good at leaving well enough alone when it's selling and making money. They did it decades ago with the K-car, which stayed in production long after its expiration date. They're doing it today with the Challenger and the Grand Caravan.
Kreb said:I think that Chevy is somewhat forgetting their audience. The Camaro is a pretty sophisticated car mechanically, but most muscle car buyers don't care about the sophistication. Compared to the Dodge Muscle, Camaros have fussy styling, lousy visibility and less backseat space. Meanwhile, Japanese and German car buyers still see Camaros as blunt objects that they'd never consider buying.
I'm concerned that they may be doing the same thing with the Corvette. Most traditional Vette owners don't want a middie, and most Eurojap owners don't want American.
Yeah, most musclecar owners really don't give a E36 M3 about flat-plane cranks, or carbon fiber, or Nurburgring lap times. They just want something that's a little crude, a lot rude, and sounds and looks evil. And can turn rear tires to barbeque sauce at will. And that's exactly what Dodge is willing to sell people.
Tom_Spangler said:My worry is that if the Camaro goes away (again), what will happen to the Mustang, since it'll soon be the only car Ford makes?
Forgetting those years that GM did not make an F-body after 2002?
I'm actually kind of surpised that we're not seeing more RWD sedans and wagons with big honking engines. Something that is both practical but can still be mean looking, loud, and melt rubber.
I'm also fairly surprised we haven't seen more smaller, RWD coupes with electric motors in the rear wheels to give little cars the thrust of a big car with the efficiency of a little one. It's really a shame that the industry is so quickly transitioning from ICE to PlugIn-EV, with very few new hyrbids, and what hybrids are being developed aren't performance oriented.
Knurled. said:Tom_Spangler said:My worry is that if the Camaro goes away (again), what will happen to the Mustang, since it'll soon be the only car Ford makes?
Forgetting those years that GM did not make an F-body after 2002?
No, I said "again", and I know the Mustang kept going during that time. My concern is that the Camaro's impending re-doom is a sign of the whole market moving away from these types of cars. The car market in 2019 is very different from what it was in 2002.
pheller said:I'm actually kind of surpised that we're not seeing more RWD sedans and wagons with big honking engines. Something that is both practical but can still be mean looking, loud, and melt rubber.
Or for that matter, more SUV/CUV's with that formula. Sedans and wagons are poor sellers. If the whole industry is going that way, why not use the same chassis underpinnings to offer the same thing but in a CUV wrapper?
If the ZL1 or GT350 is the domestic alternative to the M3/M4, and sales are weak for the effort... would not an X5M equivalent Alpha chassis based "Trailblazer SS" or something be a hot seller in today's market? Think Alfa Stelvio Quadrifoglio which is basically a CUV version of the Giulia Quadrifoglio. I wouldn't call it a Camaro, but there's still room for adrenaline and sporty packaging in a non-gunslit window packaging.
Anecdotally, I get the Camaro does most outright performance things better, but as a late 30's dad, I reaaalllly want an S550 Mustang GT350, as it seems more usable and just looks great and makes all the right noises. With the Vette going mid-engine and remaining two seats, the Camaro actually has more room to breathe in being a slightly more functional 2+2 while still being a serious performance contender.
I'm guessing they're just delaying, vs. killing altogether. I imagine it depends on the fate of that chassis as well. If the CT5/CT4 are duds, they may be looking to close or retool that plant all together for whatever is profitable. Perhaps an Alpha chassis CUV like I dreamed of above...
pheller said:I'm actually kind of surpised that we're not seeing more RWD sedans and wagons with big honking engines. Something that is both practical but can still be mean looking, loud, and melt rubber.
My guess, even just based on many in this forum, is how long the commute seems to be for many people and that most still commute 5 days per week. So a rowdy V8 wagon that is more expensive to buy and maintain and gets half the gas mileage of something like a Mazda 6.........I can see how that doesn't make sense to many people.
There are plenty of people on this forum who drive further one-way to work, then I commute all week.
In reply to Tom_Spangler :
I think it's more a sign that GM screwed the pooch with the camaro(again). I still see a ton of new Mustangs and Challengers around here, and hardly any Camaros. In fact the only kind of GM I see in any number that isn't whatever random passenger car/cuv they're E36 M3ting out lately is trucks.
Thinking about it I can't figure which brand they'll kill off this time around if they end up screwing up royally like the last time. Buick might go china only or something, I dunno.
Tony Sestito said:I've had seat time in both the current Mustang and Challenger in various forms, and to be honest, they are both great cars. Seriously, you cannot go wrong with either one! I am a big guy, and I found both of them easy to get into and get comfortable. The Mustang is really nice inside and approaching the Euro luxury cars for interior quality, and while the Challenger is a little less nice, it is by no means bad and makes up for it by giving you ample room and comfort. I had zero problems with visibility with either one.
The Camaro, on the other hand, was hard to get into and I hit my head on the roof when trying to get to a position I could see out of it. I had to lean the seat way back to fit, and at that point, I couldn't see out the sides or the back. It's like someone designed it to look cool at all costs while sacrificing everything else that makes it useable. I'm sure it's a very competent car, but it's flat out uncomfortable! For the record, I had no issues with its platform-mate Cadillac ATS. Even the ATS Coupe had a greenhouse you could see out of. Why not the Camaro?
GM has a rich history of ALMOST getting it and giving up when they are so close. They have been doing this for decades. Canceling the Camaro doesn't surprise me one bit.
Then they couldn't make it look like a '69 anymore... it would have to look like a 3rd Gen... the "horror"...
pheller said: It's really a shame that the industry is so quickly transitioning from ICE to PlugIn-EV, with very few new hybrids, and what hybrids are being developed aren't performance oriented.
Why is that a shame? EVs are already outperforming performance hybrids and ICE only models in acceleration. Performance hybrids like the LaFerrari, McLaren P1 and Porsche 918 all used the electric engines to "torque fill" the low spots in the ICE's torque curve and provide linear acceleration but the gas engine really doesn't need to be there for any non-emotional reason. It doesn't make the car any faster than something like a Tesla.
The NIO EP9 has a 'Ring record of like 6:45 which puts it only behind the Lamborghini Aventador SVJ for street cars. VW's ID.R race car ran a 6:05 lap. Having an ICE probably doesn't really help either of those vehicles in the performance category.
xflowgolf said:]I'm guessing they're just delaying, vs. killing altogether. I imagine it depends on the fate of that chassis as well. If the CT5/CT4 are duds, they may be looking to close or retool that plant all together for whatever is profitable. Perhaps an Alpha chassis CUV like I dreamed of above...
Well, the CT4 and CT5 are moving to a new chassis called the A2XX. The 6th-gen Camaro is going to be the only car on the old Alpha chassis from 2020 to 2023. The 7th-gen was also rumored to jump to the A2XX
STM317 said:pheller said: It's really a shame that the industry is so quickly transitioning from ICE to PlugIn-EV, with very few new hybrids, and what hybrids are being developed aren't performance oriented.Why is that a shame? EVs are already outperforming performance hybrids and ICE only models in acceleration. Performance hybrids like the LaFerrari, McLaren P1 and Porsche 918 all used the electric engines to "torque fill" the low spots in the ICE's torque curve and provide linear acceleration but the gas engine really doesn't need to be there for any non-emotional reason. It doesn't make the car any faster than something like a Tesla.
The NIO EP9 has a 'Ring record of like 6:45 which puts it only behind the Lamborghini Aventador SVJ for street cars. VW's ID.R race car ran a 6:05 lap. Having an ICE probably doesn't really help either of those vehicles in the performance category.
I think I'm in the minority of young people when I say I'm not excited for EVs. They just don't have any magic, to me, so they really become purely utilitarian. Then again, I also don't get excited for infotainment screens, push button start, and distraction enabling sensors
z31maniac said:spacecadet said:Javelin said:dculberson said:Javelin said:Except the S550 Mustang is better at everything than the 6th Gen Camaro like for like
Except for weight, and lap times. The Camaro trounces the Mustang in both those categories.
I'm a Mustang guy, but the Camaro has its advantages.
The SS 1LE might be able to lay one lap down better than a GT350R, but then it will cook the brakes and diff and blue the side airbags. There's a reason you don't see hardly any Camaros on track...
The major problem with that statement is that GM warranties the cars on track. Ford isn't a guarantee and you're also talking 2 cars $10k apart in price. And the voodoo motors are eating oil... none of the race motors use the flat place crank...
I love the mustang.. But saying that it's a better track car off the showroom floor is false
My very good friend just ran his ZL1 1LE on track for 10 hours hot swapping sessions with his wife for SCCA time trials for both high Plains and heartland pack back to back weekends. They drove the car from houston on RS4's to Colorado.. Farted around the Rockies for the week. Went to heartland this past weekend and then drove home.
GM's 1LE products do work on track.
Except there is basically a $25k difference between both cars. With no options, the SS 1LE MSRP is 44.5k. The GT350R with no options is $68k.
That's quite a jump in price.
Whoops, yeah Missed the R. Which aligns within a few thousand with the ZL1 1LE. And my point rests.
pheller said:I'm actually kind of surpised that we're not seeing more RWD sedans and wagons with big honking engines. Something that is both practical but can still be mean looking, loud, and melt rubber.
I drove a new Camaro and a used Chevy SS Sedan back to back, and the SS was BY FAR the better car and was way more car than most people could ever need on the streets. I'm still fairly sure I want to pick up a Chevy SS in blue sometime soon. Day to day, it's everything I want- big V8, four doors, medium sized footprint, comfortable, handles well, etc. The Charger is too large for me, the CTS-V too expensive and... that about does it for American V8 Sedans.
I guess the other thing to consider regarding the post 2002 disappearance was that there was only one competitor, Dodge wasn't in the game.
I thought the platform for the CT4/5 was a gentle evolution of the alpha?
Recall Ford initially viewed the 6th gen Camaro as a game changer and planned to introduce the next gen early in order to compete. Perhaps incremental improvements are the way to go. Most chassis/suspension is pretty good now, the game changing improvements from new designs might be a thing of the past?
What concerns me most of all is that essentially all of the traditional, more affordable, non-fwd enthusiast vehicles are either barely viable in terms of sales numbers, or can only continue to exist if there is no reinvestment. The Miata exists because FCA had a contractual agreement, changed their minds and had to make something. 86/BRZ, 370Z are hanging on by threads. Does the non-M 2/3/4 series even count in this space anymore?
z31maniac said:pheller said:I'm actually kind of surpised that we're not seeing more RWD sedans and wagons with big honking engines. Something that is both practical but can still be mean looking, loud, and melt rubber.
My guess, even just based on many in this forum, is how long the commute seems to be for many people and that most still commute 5 days per week. So a rowdy V8 wagon that is more expensive to buy and maintain and gets half the gas mileage of something like a Mazda 6.........I can see how that doesn't make sense to many people.
There are plenty of people on this forum who drive further one-way to work, then I commute all week.
I think I’m one of the few that does the opposite. I have a long commute and want to drive something I enjoy that is fast and I don’t really care too much about the gas mileage. My commute is 36 miles each way and there are plenty of places to stretch the legs of what you’re driving a bit. I currently dd my tuned cl600 at over 500hp and my tuned k1300s at around 190hp. I also drive various things like my 90 square body 4x4 suburban and w140 s500 coupe, but none of them get decent gas mileage except the bike. My preference is just to pay for the fuel and enjoy my commute. It definitely doesn’t make sense to most people, but it keeps the commute interesting for me, which is something I have not found possible in an appliance car.
In reply to Cotton :
I don't have the long commute, but I somewhat share that sentiment. There's a limit to how boring a car I'm willing to accept before it becomes a bad daily driver due to me not wanting to drive it unless I really have to.
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