944 vs C4 as a DD track rat

1985 to 1987 the 944's and the c-4's duked it out in the SCCA. The corvettes won.

I don't think the c4 is a very good DD, and I DD a '89 in the summer. But I do love it. 22-23 mpg usually, personal records of 8 (that was a quick 20 gallons...) and 31 mpg (can't do one tank without pee breaks).

If you blow a high mileage motor on track, what one is easier/cheaper/quicker to fix?

The vette has lots of cheaper options, not all true to corvette and racing, but really, you could put anything in it. If a LS1 is easy into a 944, it can't be much worse into a c4. The only thing you need to do is adapt the older chevy bellhousings to retain the 'vettes c-beam (vs the 944's torque tube?).

Plus, you already have a c-4. Bend an "A" arm and crack a wheel in an off road excursion? borrow one from the vert to get you back on track.

I have run 255 17's on the stock rims, they are relatively "thin" but cheaper than my 295 18's for my z06 rims

All this talk of dropping an oil pan reminds me that is an unpleasant task on a c4 with the oil cooler...so don't do that.

I toasted my stock clutch autocrossing, had to put a new one it myself (still $$ with the 6 speed, so probably no advantage over the p-car). But from a "I broke it racing" standpoint, not a "its a more reliable dd," I think the chebby is the cheaper easier option.

Javelin wrote: Crossfire 84 C4: 205HP, 3,200Lbs TPI 85 C4: 230HP, 3,230Lbs Neither is light nor powerful, really. Yes the power/weight for paper specs is better for the C4, but in the real world stock TPI (and especially Crossfire) engines are struggling to make that number. Also, can you find any Corvette with no options (and therefor stock weight)? Most C4's pork out around 3,800 with the leather, power everything, and stereos... I should have premised the statements as "for the weight" though.

Go one more year to 86 and you'd drop some poundage with aluminum heads, assuming your numbers are accurate...or good modern aluminum heads are just a phone call to Summit away...or do a cheapie Vortec head engine and have enough power to not care about the weight...or do a junk yard turbo setup like the GRM Challenge sucker car...or add nitrous... To me the Corvette has a lot more ways to make plenty of cheap power compared to a 944.

How about we talk about the 330ftpnds of torque that 'slow' l98 vette makes? Lulz arguing about hp and weight, torque wins. As someone pointed out, tpi manual vettes were almost 13 second cars. 2 seconds faster in the1/4 is HUGE, now apply that to the track along with wider rubber. Vette wins on pure fastness, but that doesn't mean its the best...

Holy crap people, way to harp on one comment. Yeah, the C4 is faster on a drag strip (how many drag launches are you going to do with a transaxle equipped Porsche anyways?) and yeas it makes more torque. But to answer THIS question, which is which makes a better DD/track car, the answer is 944, especially if the OP can nab an S2.

Don't get me wrong, I'd trade my 944 for an LT1/6-Speed Vette in nothing flat (especially the 96 Grand Sport), but the early C4's were POS's. The digital dashboards never worked, the +3 on the 4-speed never worked, and they ARE heavy! The early C4's are anemic when stock. Yes, you can mod the crazy out of them, but you can do that to a 944 as well.

And for the 951 doubters, look around. There's always a rough looking one that would make a great track car for sale somewhere. I passed up one that I posted up here and it sounds like the OP has a local one as well. They really aren't that hard to find.

Well, that's for "100 miles away" values of local, but then again that's what you get for living out in the sticks...

I'm pretty sure I don't want a 951 at this price point, the danger of something major going bang with the associated expense is a little too high for my liking.

tpi c4's are underrated

*26-28 highway mpg happens

*leather and a radio dont turn a 3250# car into a 3800 # one, mine tipped the scale a hair over 3300 with fatter rears and it has almost every option

*ive seen several stock cars put 230+hp to the wheels on different dynos

*its an SBC, you don't get much cheaper and easier to make faster.

17x11's and 315's are surprisingly relatively cheap.

As far as insurance, I can't comment on the Vette but an '85? 944 was a whole $2 more per 6 months then my old '96 Civic .

My C4 saw extensive track duty. I added C5 brakes up front (rotors, calipers, and pads are much cheaper, and much beefier than C4 brakes). Routinely saw 6 litres per /100 km on the way to the track (33 mpg). But, on the track fuel use was much, much higher (as high as 50 liters/100 kms once ). If you look on the Corvette forums you are likely to find a track-prepped C4 for very friendly money.

Having said all that, I would look for a beater C5 -- an all around better car, in my opinion. The LS motor is much better than the LT, and has almost as much support as a classic L98.

ZOO wrote: My C4 saw extensive track duty. I added C5 brakes up front (rotors, calipers, and pads are much cheaper, and much beefier than C4 brakes). Routinely saw 6 litres per /100 km on the way to the track (33 mpg). But, on the track fuel use was much, much higher (as high as 50 liters/100 kms once ). If you look on the Corvette forums you are likely to find a track-prepped C4 for very friendly money. Having said all that, I would look for a beater C5 -- an all around better car, in my opinion. The LS motor is much better than the LT, and has almost as much support as a classic L98.

But the price range is still 3-5K, so I think a C5 is still out of reach. I would go with a C4 over a 944 because I just think it's a better value. I believe the 944 is more refined, comfortable, and possibly more forgiving to drive. But if you were to buy an S2 or a 6speed L98 for 5k and had to drop another 2k into it over a few years, which would come out on top? I suspect the cheaper parts of the C4 would give more budget for go fast and entry fees.

Stuff the look out for on the C4's are wheel bearings and cooling systems. When the bearings go, replace them with quality parts, and keep the cooling system in check since they tend to run hot at the track from what I've been told.

For insurance, if it's over 20 years old and not your primary car, look into agreed value classic car insurance. I have my 911 insured with Hagerty and it costs less than $500 per year.

I'm DD'ing my 88 4+3 right now. The wife's car quit running, and I just got a lot of little stuff done to it. Next thing on it's long list is a tune up (plugs, wires, rotor, filters) and she's done. A little stiff with teh Z51 suspension and poly bushings I just installed, but not bad. I am very happy with it as a Daily. Even running like dog poo right now, we're averaging 22mpg driving back and forth to work and I haven't figured out how to keep my right foot off the fun pedal.

Insurance on the 88 Z51 is actually LESS than the 94 Swift GT. We're paying ~ $390 a year on insurance for it.

The one I got was pretty ragged, almost 150k miles, fluid changes were few and far between, mismatched plugs, cap/rotor look to have not been removed since the early 90's, suspension bushings rotted, monroe shocks replaced the Bilsteins etc etc. THe 4+3 works great, the car's balance is fantastic and those 275 wide tires are amazing. 13" frt rotors, quick steering.... the car is a blast.

In reply to Woody:

My quote from Hagerty for my 944 was $163. I think that was for a year. Maybe it was only six months. In either case, pocket change.

As for the power issue, if you want apples to apples $5K track rats, you are looking at an early C4 versus a 944T. Very few cars will keep up with a nicely set up 944 Turbo.

Off topic - why am I the only person on earth whose cars get MPG in the general range of what the EPA says it will? The EPA rates an '84 Vette at 13/20 MPG and an '84 944 at 18/25 MPG.

Otto Maddox wrote: Off topic - why am I the only person on earth whose cars get MPG in the general range of what the EPA says it will?

yOU'RE Not the only one. Actually most of mine are on the high end of the highway estiomates...

Dropping the oil pan on a 944 is NOT a trivial affair! Replacing an oil pan gasket on one is a serious PITA and the reason why most people also replace the rod bearings while they're in there.

I'd replace rod bearing on any higher mileage 944 (ie all of them by now) that's going to see any track time.

I did an LS1 swap into my 951 after having an engine failure. All the parts are out there, but it is a decent amount of work and expense.

I must be doing something wrong with the insurance then, the C4 convertible comes in at around $450 every six months...

Mind you, classic insurance would be a lot cheaper but that's a no-go with the DD requirement.

We've got 4 vehicles, motorcycle and the house through the same agent. It's not listed as a daily for us..... the two hyundai's are though. But even then, they are still under $200 each. Liability only on everything except the truck and bike, costs us ~$1100 a year on 2 hyundai's, a corvette, 06 GMC and the Nighthawk.

BoxheadTim wrote: I must be doing something wrong with the insurance then, the C4 convertible comes in at around $450 every six months... Mind you, classic insurance would be a lot cheaper but that's a no-go with the DD requirement.

You don't have to worry about mileage with a 944, since they all have broken odometers by now!

How strict is Hagerty with the mileage / usage limits?

dculberson wrote: How strict is Hagerty with the mileage / usage limits?

Hagerty doesn't have mileage limits.

Usage is a bit more vague. There is a line question about competition use, but the way I see it, that would only be an issue if you ball it up at the track and try to make a claim... IMHO, if you can't afford to lose it, then you can't afford to track it.

OK, I've tracked and owned a 944 and 951, and have not owned a Corvette, but have spent time on track in a friend's '86 4+3. No way no how is a 951 going to be track ready at the price you're talking about. Most in that price range are going to need a LOT of neglected maintenance corrected first. And modified 951's aren't very reliable. In stock form they aren't bad, upping the boost creates problems of it's own. With enough money they can be rectified, but are pretty expensive to modify correctly.

The 944 on track is just so-so in my opinion. It makes a great daily driver, but it's pretty boring on track. Other than great steering feel, it doesn't have a whole lot of pluses compared to the other options out there. An S2 might be different. And as others have stated, the rod bearing issue is definitely for real. Maintenance on both the 44 and 51 is going to be an issue at some point too.

If you can do ALL the work it's not so bad, but farm anything out and the bills start going up drastically. Most things are hard to get to, especially the clutch and the various bits for the turbo on the 951. The oil cooler on the 951 is also in a bad spot. I broke mine on a pot hole and it dumped all it's oil instantly and almost induced a spin at speed when it soaked down the rear tires (and fronts) while under power, and in traffic. On track in could have meant a wadded up car.

The Corvette was a great time. Loads of power regardless of what others are saying. It never felt slow, and the torque was great. Turn in was also good. It was a lot more fun than the 944 on track, but maybe a bit below the 951. It does have it's problem areas, but since I've not owned one, i can only go by others. Hubs are an issue it seems, maybe it's biggest. On track, they can fail, but that should be a yearly or semi-yearly check. As a daily look for electronics issues with the dash, and the 4+3 is an aqquired taste.

My favorite: A Miata or 1st gen MR2. Though a little slower, both make for a more fun track day experience, for a lot less money in terms of tires, brakes, upkeep and maintenance. They simply are more fun than all of the above in my opinion, and an easier car to learn on to boot. And MUCH easier to live with on a day in and day out basis.

Also, an E36 M3 is creeping into your price range as well. I would easily rate it more fun than the Corvette or 944, and just a bit below the 951. Think of it as a big 4 seat Miata with a bigger outlay for consumables.

Of the original 3 choices, if I had to do it all over again, it would be a C4 without question. The 951 is the more rewarding, but it's also a very coslty car to keep over the long run. And most everyone I've seen in years have had needs. And most of those needs cost real money because the previous owner didn't want to spend it. It's like crack though...you always want more. it's best just to stay away and just say no!

i can say this... if you don'tturn your own wrenches, a C4 will eat you alive at the prices we're talking. Any shop visit will be a grand. every time. But shop around, and the parts prices are reasonable and the car is really easy to work on.

Yeah, I've started working on our C4 - the ideal scenario is that I'll do the work I can do and only farm out the bigger jobs that might require special equipment.

@racerdave600, Miatas and MR2s are on the radar, the problem seems to be the inability of the people advertising them on CL to actually communicate with folks trying to give them money... Plus, it seems to be easier - at least at the moment - to find C4s and 944s out here than MR2s or Miatas. Go figure.

So far the E36 M3s that turned up anywhere near my price range seem to require a lot of work; Heck, I'd take a good 325/328 coupe if I could find one that doesn't seem to have been owned by an illiterate wannabe gangsta with a penchant for 24" chrome rims.

Here's a thought, 3rd Gen Camraro/Firebird? Similar TPI motor as the C4, way cheaper to buy and maintain, bettern than the C4 at DD duties, and can be made just as fast around a track. Find a WS6 hardtop Formula with the 305/T5 and swap in a 350/383 with alloy heads. The aerodynamics are sound (the fastest car in all of Europe until the Veyron SS was a 253MPH 3rd Gen Bird with a blown big block) as well.

Might be hard to find, but probably worth at least taking a look. The maintenance on one is pennies compared to either the C4 or the 944.

ACTUAL maintenance on a C4 is the same as the Camaro, but without the live axle, the E36 M3ty chassis, the weak brakes and the small tires....plus no mullet required to own one.

Otto Maddox wrote: In reply to Javelin: I never tracked my 944, but I understand that it is common for track 944s to spin a bearing after suffering oil starvation from going around hard corners. The engines aren't cheap. But yeah, the 944 should be a far better DD. I couldn't agree more. I could haul a family of four or my mountain bike in mine. I averaged around 22 mpg.

Some facts

MPG.. my 944 Turbo gets me 25-26 mpg when I daily drive it. That is for a 250hp 160 mph car. Not bad.

944's of all vintage can spin bearings at the track. I have tracked 944's since 1999 and have spun 2 bearings in my 944 race car. One blew up the motor and other was repairable. The biggest key is to keep the oil level full and to change rod bearings on older motors.

Used motors cost $500-1000 or less if attached to a car. Rebuilds can be done at home for $1000 in gaskets/seals. Hard to say how much each one cost me. The blown up motor only destroyed the bottom end so the head is still in use. The other needed new bearings and a replacement crank. I picked on up for $80 used. I have 120 or so races on my 944 race and it has been an excellent track car. My 944 Turbo is street car with 5-6 track days on it and 142k miles. I have had it since 1997.