He was paddocked next to us all week end. Seemed like a nice guy. He has a beautiful miata.
He was paddocked next to us all week end. Seemed like a nice guy. He has a beautiful miata.
Definitely changed my mind about wanting to instruct at least for now.
Jaynen said:Now days with FPV systems for drones and remote control aircraft it seems like it would be somewhat trivially cheap to setup a camera setup even with telemetry overlay that would allow an instructor to be a bug in the ear of a student and also could provide invaluable video with the instructor messages as well to a student after the fact.
If you can remote control a drone wing flying miles away from you, you can narrate instructions to someone via cameras I would think. I would also think that if a track day provider was able to do this enmasse they could sort of police the entire field more easily even setting boundaries for events in terms of safe speeds et al
Yeah it wouldn't be hard to do. In fact you could strap a cell phone into the right position and it could do the job - it already has the camera, speaker, high-speed cellular data connection, GPS, and accelerometers. The cell phone data would be costly though, it could be replaced by UHF/VHF broadcasts from the car for video and FMRS/GMRS radio links for voice.
GameboyRMH said:Jaynen said:Now days with FPV systems for drones and remote control aircraft it seems like it would be somewhat trivially cheap to setup a camera setup even with telemetry overlay that would allow an instructor to be a bug in the ear of a student and also could provide invaluable video with the instructor messages as well to a student after the fact.
If you can remote control a drone wing flying miles away from you, you can narrate instructions to someone via cameras I would think. I would also think that if a track day provider was able to do this enmasse they could sort of police the entire field more easily even setting boundaries for events in terms of safe speeds et al
Yeah it wouldn't be hard to do. In fact you could strap a cell phone into the right position and it could do the job - it already has the camera, speaker, high-speed cellular data connection, GPS, and accelerometers. The cell phone data would be costly though, it could be replaced by UHF/VHF broadcasts from the car for video and FMRS/GMRS radio links for voice.
most tracks have wifi... you should be able to setup something that does this all VOIP with data streams, and probably a 360deg camera. Should be able to handle faster/bigger through-put than 4G, right? Although, then there should be an ABS override into the OBD2 systems as well? would/could help prevent situations like this?
edit: this also seems like an... intelligent(?)... way to get around the "no data collection, because it makes this too much like racing" restriction some groups use because it would raise insurance rates. No instructors in the cars is less risk, yes we collect data, but that means we have a better idea of what the driver/car are doing, and as a side benefit... they learn faster?
sleepyhead said:most tracks have wifi... you should be able to setup something that does this all VOIP with data streams, and probably a 360deg camera. Should be able to handle faster/bigger through-put than 4G, right? Although, then there should be an ABS override into the OBD2 systems as well? would/could help prevent situations like this?
I don't know of any tracks that have wifi all the way around the track, so if you tried to use wifi you'd only have a connection as the car passes by the pits. If there were wifi all the way around the track then it would work. An OBD2 interface would indeed be useful for data logging but I don't think you can activate the brakes over OBD2. For newer cars CANbus would also be useful and you can often activate the brakes over CANbus, but I don't think there's a standardized control interface.
A little research indicates the biggest issue would be lack of line of sight from the transmitter to the receiver with most FPV style systems
If you could get a dual camera setup like this though, I don't really know why the instructor would need to be in the car.
Lead -> follow -> lead is how we did it on the sport bike lapping days.
The instructors would follow you for a few laps, then get in front and correct your lines, then follow you again, then after the session critique not only your lines, but body position, throttle application, etc.
Although it's much easier to see/hear everything on the bikes.
In cars, the biggest thing for me was having an instructor show me just what was REALLY hard braking in my own car. I thought I was braking hard, I might have well as been on the gas pedal still.
Events like this are always a gut check that reminds everyone to reflect on what is really important in life.
djsilver said:docwyte said:djsilver, can you comment on what sort of additional safety equipment (if any) was installed in the car?
I don't know what equipment was in the car because it was run by a PCA region under their rules. If I did know I would have to tell you I can't say because it's the responsibility of the event organizers to disseminate any information about it.
Thx
The few times I ran HPDE with NNJPCA (Northern New Jersey Porsche Club of America), they were borderline Nazi as far as safety inspection and equipment, having to pass through tech inspection again at the track, along with the Porsche dealer inspection you needed to get in the gate, and lining up for a pass through a lug nut torquing station before entering the track for the first day's session. Deadly serious about safety. I'm ashamed to admit I scared the instructor assigned on my first trip to the Glen; made it up by taking his criticism to heart and astonishing him with my improvement on Saturday.
Baruth's article is dead on, along with the observations in this thread. The "track day phenomenon" is real, the cars are scary fast, the car owners out for a lark and not serious about the art of racing. I'm a decent enough driver now, I know my limitations, and I cannot in good faith instruct on-track.
Really, really glad to hear the instructor will pull through.
My experience is only with NASA Mid-Atlantic and Northeast. There are many other HPDE groups out there, some of which have sent me those 'requests of desperation' mentioned earlier. I'll stick with the group I know for now.
One thing my regions do is pair me up with drivers who have a similar car. When I had my E30 I got Miatas and BMWs assigned to me. Now, some of the Bimmers were M cars and faster than what I had but not terrifyingly so. When I recently got rid of the E30 I used my Mustang a couple of times just for fun until I found my next track car. So I got assigned Mustangs. Which was cool, though mine is a wimpy V6 and I was riding in S550's and race-prepped Fox bodies.
I could have requested a different student at any time if I was uncomfortable. Only the last guy I had with a S550 GT gave me pause. He was generally good and mostly listened but put a tire off in a really bad spot. Lucky for the both of us he caught the mistake and fixed it but he did have a case of 'too much car' for his skill level. Sometimes you don't know getting in the car. Sometimes the driver will appear to be an easy student but can have a bad session. You really never know.
None of that matters if there is a medical situation. That can happen in any car. I ride motorcycles so I know all about acceptable risk levels for myself. 99% of my students have been good. 40% of them have been great. 1% were true rock stars. I'll continue instructing (with NASA anyway) as long as those percentages remain fairly consistent. I enjoy teaching as much as the track time.
The driving schools that use radios instead of in-car instructors are doing it because it costs too much to staff the students one-on-one.
There's no substitute for somebody in the right seat.
The instructor corps in the programs I run with are all there because they really, really want to teach others how to do it. Their love for the driving activity, and the desire to share the love, outweighs their aversion to the risk.
They experience fear and frustration when students discover their limits the wrong way. They talk to each other in the paddock afterwards as a way to come down off that, and it creates a sense of unity and trust among them.
They do a zillion different things to guard against someone getting hurt -- or even getting their car damaged -- and they're always looking for something to add. If there is an incident, it's analyzed carefully with an eye to figuring out whether its feasible to intercede and avoid any similar future bad outcomes.
Basically, they treat it like it's every bit as dangerous as an indoor gun range . . . times 100.
The few times I ran HPDE with NNJPCA (Northern New Jersey Porsche Club of America), they were borderline Nazi as far as safety inspection and equipment, having to pass through tech inspection again at the track, along with the Porsche dealer inspection you needed to get in the gate, and lining up for a pass through a lug nut torquing station before entering the track for the first day's session. Deadly serious about safety.
While all this is done to ensure the car is safe, little is done to ensure the driver is safe. The car is made to jump through various hoops for safety reasons but all a driver needs is a driver license (hopefully valid).
I can say that recommendations have been made, are still being made/evaluated, and are being further explored/developed by those involved in this incident. Hopefully in the future we can make our events safer for all involved.
Trackmouse said:trigun7469 said:In reply to Woody :
Easy Solution, the more HP you have the higher entry fee.
1$ per horsepower? Sounds good, but the guy with the viper or GT3 likely has more money than sense, or talent.
How fast are they going to be when they are surrounded by a bunch of Geo Metros with 65Hp? Can you imagine how many slow cars would be at the track.
Yeah the price-per-HP entry fee would stop having any effect above 450hp or so...
trigun7469 said:
How fast are they going to be when they are surrounded by a bunch of Geo Metros with 65Hp? Can you imagine how many slow cars would be at the track.
I've been to that race, and it was crazy: Nine years ago my LeMons team was on track when pro driver Leh Keen flogged an SN-95 Mustang GT through the packed field of ratty hoopties. A driver trying to set good times on a track filled with slow cars is a dangerous recipe for sketchy passing moves.
In reply to nderwater : How so in a track day when you need point byes?
came across this on facebook. gofundme for the instructor involved. from the details, he sustained a multitude of injuries.
In reply to Go_Gators :
Ah - great to hear he's on the way to recovery. Amazing how much damage was done, my thoughts are with him and his family. I wonder if he had a hybrid HANs (http://simpsonraceproducts.com/hybrid/hybrid-s-3-point-belt-compatible/) - if not I wonder if they think it could've helped. 100mph with a flip is a big impact...
In reply to trigun7469 :
I might be misunderstanding your question/statement, but in NASA 3/4/TT it's open passing with no point-by. It was similar at most of my track days - advanced groups don't require a point by and allow race-like passing, that is anywhere on the track.
GameboyRMH said:Yeah the price-per-HP entry fee would stop having any effect above 450hp or so...
It wouldn't have any impact period. Do you think guys that can afford $100k plus cars are impacted by a few hundred dollars on one of the few weekends they go to the track?
It's sour grapes to want to make faster cars pay more.
Unpopular opinion follows:
Still safer than your daily drive to work to instruct hotheads in vipers on a prepared track. Cars are faster, but safer than ever. Your fear of accidents is more about our instant and available media than actual occurances. The 'danger' is real, but blown way out of proportion. When I was younger I lost a friend a year to racing, but seldom made the news. Now I see more about when accidents happen as everyone has social media. Its mostly perception.
While I see drones, in-car cameras and radios, etc helping, there is no replacement for an instructor that can feel the weight shift of the car.
If you are willing to give up what you love, to not die, you already have.
With that out of the way, my deepest condolences to everyone affected my any tragic event.
And you base your opinion on what statistics? I'd MUCH rather do my daily drive to work (even on my motorcycle!) than strap into a hotheads in a viper with factory safety equipment. In fact, I'd *decline* entirely to strap myself in. That guy is SOL as far as me getting into the passenger seat with him.
I am an instructor, have been for many years, there's simply NO way I'd put myself into that scenario. Has nothing to do with giving up what I love, has everything to do with not making stupid decisions.
Nugi said:Still safer than your daily drive to work to instruct hotheads in vipers on a prepared track.
I used to make that argument, too. Turns out street driving is far, far safer than people think. There was a freakonomics episode about this a couple of years ago. I don’t want to make up a number, but the statistics were that you’d have to do nothing but drive 24/7 for something like 250 years before you’d die in a car accident.
You have to look at these things in the context of how many hours/miles get driven. Considering how much more time you spend on the street vs. on track, your chances of biting it per minute/mile driven are much higher on track.
Just wanted to let you guys know there is more information and a gofundme site to help cover medical out of pocket costs for the injured instructor
docwyte said:And you base your opinion on what statistics? I'd MUCH rather do my daily drive to work (even on my motorcycle!) than strap into a hotheads in a viper with factory safety equipment. In fact, I'd *decline* entirely to strap myself in. That guy is SOL as far as me getting into the passenger seat with him.
I am an instructor, have been for many years, there's simply NO way I'd put myself into that scenario. Has nothing to do with giving up what I love, has everything to do with not making stupid decisions.
Yep, even though I'm very thankful for my instructors, I don't think I could ever convince myself to jump in a car with someone that may know nothing.
accordionfolder said:In reply to trigun7469 :
I might be misunderstanding your question/statement, but in NASA 3/4/TT it's open passing with no point-by.
Not quite. Just to correct the record (at least in the two regions I work with) Group 3 is 'pass anywhere with a point-by'. 4 and TT are open passing, no point-by required but I try to give them anyway. That way the guy passing knows I've seen him.
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