MadScientistMatt said:They should have called it the Mustang Macher-E.
MadScientistMatt said:They should have called it the Mustang Macher-E.
I think it's fine. Trading on the Mustang name? I think that's pushing it and came from a drunk focus group.
Shadeux said:I think it's fine. Trading on the Mustang name? I think that's pushing it and came from a drunk focus group.
No no, the drunk Focus group came up with the C-max. At least the ones that named the plug-in hybrid version.
rob_lewis said:Keith, please don't stop. This is a fun and interesting conversation. I gotta state, again, that I'm notanti-EV. There's a whole bunch of stuff I like about them. Just trying to explain adoption or lack there of.
As have been stated in several posts here, you'll need to change the mindset of the average consumer to adopt an EV right now. Take the savings to rent a car for long trips, reroute trips a bit to find charging stations, add an expensive charger to your house, etc. It can be tried, but it's a huge uphill battle. When an EV can act like a car, people will buy them, plain and simple. My example of 10 gas stations around my house was more to outline the availability of gas vs. a charging station as opposed to it being near my house. Charging stations are coming, but they're still not as common as gas. Looking at the Tesla charging map, I count 7 in Kansas if you don't count KC. That's a lot of people without a charging station close. Keith, you mentioned being able to drive to Vegas and have a charging station along the same stops as fuel. That's awesome and for you, an EV makes sense. For a large part of the country, that's not possible. When someone like Ford and/or Exxon decide to invest up front and get the infrastructure in place first, EV adoption will increase.
Again, some EV's, in theory, would satisfy my day to day needs for my commute. But, they're more expensive to purchase, I'd have to pay for a 220v charger installed in the house and I'd have to plan for alternative transportation if I go beyond it's range. Plus, there are easy examples of range (a vacation) that can be overcome by renting, but there are others that you don't plan for, because stuff happens, where you could expend that range and be stuck. I live in Texas. We grew out instead of up. A commute back and forth to work, a run to the mall, or a doctor's appointment on the other side of town in the middle of the day could leave me stranded. Or, a commute to work, a trip back to my kids school because he forgot his meds and then a trip back to work and eventually a trip home for the day would have me out of juice. No charging stations anywhere in that route.
Given all of that, there's not a compelling argument for purchasing one over an ICE car. Hybrids have come far enough (and cheap enough in comparison) to make it a compelling option and one I'm considering. It's one more people are moving towards as hybrids become more mainstreams. So, it's not the "fringe" scenarios or the "I need a one ton truck because sometimes I buy fertilizer at the store", it's the cost and other things that I have to do for an EV that I can just as easily do with gas while still with the real risk of being stranded.
-Rob
If you look at EVs as simply the cheapest way to get around, it's going to be a while before they get adopted. The highly-evolved ICE with a fully developed infrastructure is hard to beat. I think it will be other attributes that drive their adoption, whether it's all-out performance or day-to-day convenience or the quiet way it moves around. That will drive the infrastructure and the volume, which will bring the price down and make them more competitive.
They ARE cheaper to run - I figured a while back that the Model 3 only costs about 15% of what my E39 M5 does in terms of fuel cost, and that's not taking maintenance into account. They have almost the same performance and space, and the buy-in on the Model 3 is a whoooole lot less than the M5 would have been when it was new although a new 335 might be a better comparison if we're looking for apples to apples. But yes, there might be other up-front costs such as charger wiring.
I'm not asking questions like "how much range?" to be argumentative, it's because I am honestly interested. Conversation good. To me, a 250-ish mile range was enough for me, and that's living in a fairly isolated town in rural Colorado. I am not in a major metropolitan area here. As it turns out, the only time we've dropped below 100 miles is when Janel spent most of a week staying with her sister while I was out of town and didn't charge at night.
Those charging stops between GJ and Vegas are because I'd be making my trip on an interstate. If I wanted to take the backroad scenic trip, I'd have to plan more carefully. Heck, some of the gas stations are pretty far apart around there. Unsurprisingly, the charger build-out follows population densities and high-volume corridors.
As for your scenario of having to run a lot of errands - remember that you start every trip from home with a full charge. So if you have an EV with a 250 mile range, you'd only get in trouble if you ended up driving more than 250 miles unexpectedly and could not arrange for a top-up somewhere along the route. That's a big difference from an ICE, where you start a trip with whatever you had at the end of the last one.
I have trouble with hybrids. To me, it seems that you're carrying around a full ICE plus an EV. That seems like the worst of both worlds, although it may come across as the best of both depending on what attributes you're looking for.
z31maniac said:But how often do you fill up to 3/4 of a tank, then refill again at 1/4 tank? That's pretty close to only wanting the battery to be between 80-20%
I fill up, then run it down below the 1/8 of a tank mark basically everytime. Sometimes until the gas light comes on.
How would you do it if you had a fuel pump in your garage that you shoved into the fuel filler and forgot about until you had to leave for work the next day?
As far as battery "fill" is concerned, I think they factor that in. The batteries are never charged all the way or discharged all the way. (This can be an issue with hybrids - some will not attempt to start the engine if the hybrid battery has insufficient charge. This generally happens under special circumstances beyond the scope of the thread)
There's generally about a gallon or so of fuel in your tank that you cannot use, and a gallon or so of space that you can never get fuel into. It is sort of the same thing.
In reply to alfadriver :
63% of US housing units have a garage or carport
Over 80% of current EV owners charge at home. If you can afford an EV, chances are really good you can have a charger, even if you don't have a garage. So, like I said, People considering an EV, or owning an EV pretty much all have the ability to charge at home. People that can't charge at home are less likely to buy one for any number of reasons, finances, dense population center making public transit more efficient, etc.
EVs aren't perfect for everybody just as hatchbacks, or minivans or diesel trucks, aren't perfect for everybody. If an EV doesn't make sense for somebody, there's nothing making them buy one. But reality is that for a very large percentage of people, the current EVs are more than adequate and people just come up with silly reasons why they won't work because they're different from the status quo.
Knurled. said:
There's generally about a gallon or so of fuel in your tank that you cannot use, and a gallon or so of space that you can never get fuel into. It is sort of the same thing.
I have some German friends that will bounce their cars while refuelling to get rid of those pesky bubbles, and then try to get as far as possible before refuelling. The perfect drive is when the car stalls out on the off-ramp and you coast up to the pump. It's nerve-wracking to road trip with them in convoy.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Sounds like my father. He was not very good at it, unfortuantly for the other people in the vehicle.
Knurled. said:z31maniac said:But how often do you fill up to 3/4 of a tank, then refill again at 1/4 tank? That's pretty close to only wanting the battery to be between 80-20%
I fill up, then run it down below the 1/8 of a tank mark basically everytime. Sometimes until the gas light comes on.
How would you do it if you had a fuel pump in your garage that you shoved into the fuel filler and forgot about until you had to leave for work the next day?
As far as battery "fill" is concerned, I think they factor that in. The batteries are never charged all the way or discharged all the way. (This can be an issue with hybrids - some will not attempt to start the engine if the hybrid battery has insufficient charge. This generally happens under special circumstances beyond the scope of the thread)
There's generally about a gallon or so of fuel in your tank that you cannot use, and a gallon or so of space that you can never get fuel into. It is sort of the same thing.
I'd probably not bother charging it until was getting low. I average maybe 45 miles per week.
STM317 said: the current EVs are more than adequate and people just come up with silly reasons why they won't work because they're different from the status quo.
Let me first say that statements like that will make people dig in their heels and defend their reasons even more. It's like talking to my friends about politics. You tell someone their wrong or stupid or silly or an idiot, I guarantee you'll never change their mind.
Regarding the cost. Just to use a comparison, the Hyundai Ioniq Electric has an MPGe rating of 59 and a range of 124 miles and costs $20k (or is it $30k before credit?). A Hyundai Elantra gets 41 MPG and is $18k. Forgiving the measly range that, again, I'd come close to depleting every day, gas would be $850/yr in fuel (15k/yr x $2.25/gal here in Texas). So, I'd save $850/yr. Just to make up the difference in the purchase price, it's about 2 years to the break even point. Tack on a $1500-2000 charger to my house, and it's 4 years. Sure, I wouldn't have oil changes with the EV, but that's $25-50/year?
So, I'm paying more up front, saving $850/year for a car that won't let me visit my kid in it, will just get me back and forth to work (I assume if the A/C is full blast, the 124 mile range drops) and if I have to do anything at lunch, I have no place to charge it and am stuck. What's the advantage over an ICE? Heck, what's the equivalent?
Does a Tesla make more sense than an M5 in cost? I guess, but I'm not in that market. Most people aren't. I don't think that for the average buyer, the would see a savings of an EV over an ICE car for 4-6 years. Just not enough of a savings to risk range issues, IMO.
I used to say I wouldn't buy a hybrid because they were a stop gap to full EV and that the longer hybrids last, the longer it will take to come up with better batteries and/or charging infrastructure. I guess that might still be true, but I do want to spend less on gas and the hybrid option is now within the same price as an ICE car, so I'd consider it now.
I'm curious how many people own an EV and an ICE car (just in case) vs. how many just own EV's. Well, and where they live.
-Rob
James May recently bought a Tesla Model S, and posted a short video about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzDzv4NVlfE&frags=pl%2Cwn His reasoning for the purchase is interesting.
Here's an electric vehicle I wish we could get in the US, a Morris Commercial Van: https://www.morris-commercial.com
Keith Tanner said:FYI, the latest Superchargers can pump in about 15 miles/minute. So that's 225 miles in 15 minutes. I expect the latest Electrify America stations aren't far off.
Anyone know if the Ford will be associated with a specific charging network the way that Porsche (EA) or Tesla (Superchargers) are? Will Ford work to expand the charging network or will they count on the existing Level 2 stuff?
15 miles a minute? Thats a game changer for me. My week was almost 1000 miles all told. My mazda6 gets roughly 420 a tank. But my average day is usually about 175-200. A 150 mile range, with chargers as prevalent as gas stations, and 15 mile a minute charge rates, i wpuld be seriously looking at ev when the mazda gets retired.
rob_lewis said:STM317 said: the current EVs are more than adequate and people just come up with silly reasons why they won't work because they're different from the status quo.Let me first say that statements like that will make people dig in their heels and defend their reasons even more. It's like talking to my friends about politics. You tell someone their wrong or stupid or silly or an idiot, I guarantee you'll never change their mind.
Regarding the cost. Just to use a comparison, the Hyundai Ioniq Electric has an MPGe rating of 59 and a range of 124 miles and costs $20k (or is it $30k before credit?). A Hyundai Elantra gets 41 MPG and is $18k. Forgiving the measly range that, again, I'd come close to depleting every day, gas would be $850/yr in fuel (15k/yr x $2.25/gal here in Texas). So, I'd save $850/yr. Just to make up the difference in the purchase price, it's about 2 years to the break even point. Tack on a $1500-2000 charger to my house, and it's 4 years. Sure, I wouldn't have oil changes with the EV, but that's $25-50/year?
So, I'm paying more up front, saving $850/year for a car that won't let me visit my kid in it, will just get me back and forth to work (I assume if the A/C is full blast, the 124 mile range drops) and if I have to do anything at lunch, I have no place to charge it and am stuck. What's the advantage over an ICE? Heck, what's the equivalent?
Does a Tesla make more sense than an M5 in cost? I guess, but I'm not in that market. Most people aren't. I don't think that for the average buyer, the would see a savings of an EV over an ICE car for 4-6 years. Just not enough of a savings to risk range issues, IMO.
I used to say I wouldn't buy a hybrid because they were a stop gap to full EV and that the longer hybrids last, the longer it will take to come up with better batteries and/or charging infrastructure. I guess that might still be true, but I do want to spend less on gas and the hybrid option is now within the same price as an ICE car, so I'd consider it now.
I'm curious how many people own an EV and an ICE car (just in case) vs. how many just own EV's. Well, and where they live.
-Rob
That's why buying simply on price is going to take a while, especially at the bottom end of the market and if you have a commute that's 60 miles each way. That's a tough brief. You have to pay more to get more range that makes the EV more logical for your use.
I do wonder about your budget for the charger, that seems a bit high but I'll admit I'm not fully versed on what a Level 2 charger costs. Keep in mind that electricity isn't free, we pay just under 10c per kWh so it does cost us a bit of money to "fill up". So if it's all about the cheapest way to move your meat around and your minimum daily distance is 100+ miles, the ICE will be the king for some time.
The price of the Model 3 is awfully close to the average price of a new car in the US. So saying that "most people" aren't in that market isn't strictly true, it's right in a fairly fat chunk of it. I'm comparing my 3 to a 17 year old BMW, which I why I mentioned that a 335 (or something like that) would be a more realistic comparison. Just looked on BMW's site and an AWD 330i is right about the same price as our dual motor - so there's that.
I will happily admit (and I have on this forum) that having access to an ICE made my EV decision a lot easier. But since we've picked up the EV, we've only used an ICE when we needed two cars.
In reply to rob_lewis :
I'm not sure where you get $1500 to $2000 for a charger. A quick search on the web will find a charger for $500 or less. Even the Siemens model tuna got for his Bolt is under $500. Plug installation can vary depending on location and DIY capability, but I can't see how it could cost $1000 for a circuit breaker, a receptacle and some wiring.
For me, the desire for an EV is all about lazy convenience. For my regular daily driver, I don't want to be bothered with stopping at gas/diesel stations. Get home from work, pull into the garage, plug the car in, done. That level of convenience is worth something to me. I'll save the fuel-filling chores for my toy vehicles.
In reply to rob_lewis :
You left out the qualifier at the beginning of my statement there about there being a very large percentage of people that they work for. That doesn't mean they work for everybody, and I specifically said that. There are plenty of people for whom EVs don't make sense or are on the fringe of just barely working. You might be one of those cases. But that doesn't change that MOST people could be served very well by a current EV, which is what I said. Your reasons may not be silly, but if you drive enough in a day to have range concerns, then your use isn't typical either, so don't dig your heels in too hard. The statement probably doesn't apply to you. The average driver puts 13k miles on their car in a year. That's 35 miles per day. If you're really pushing over 100 miles per day, you're nearly triple the average use.
Also, if you're doing that many miles in a day, even just 5 days per week and nothing on weekends, that's 26000 miles per year. (Not sure why you used 15k in your calculation if you're really doing enough in a day to have range concerns.) Anyway...with the Hyundai Elantra's 7500 mile oil change interval that's at least 3 (probably 4) oil changes per year @ 40-ish? apiece. EVs are also easier on brakes, and you don't have things like O2 sensors, etc that would add long term maintenance costs.
NYC has recently done a study on maintenance for their fleet in 2018 and found that EV's were generally several hundred dollars less per year in maintenance on average than their gas counterparts, and even regular hybrids:
Granted, a city car in NYC lives a different life than a highway cruiser in TX, but it does give an interesting data point. Look at the gas Fusion vs the PHEV Fusion, or the gas Focus vs the all-electric Focus.
In your example of the two Hyundais, Im not sure why you're using an MPGe of 59? Fuel economy.gov shows an MPGe of 136 for the Ionic Electric. When I run the numbers for your amount of driving (26k miles per year (100 miles per day, 5 days per week) and a generic $0.13/kwh electric rate) I'm getting a saving over $1k/yr in fuel costs alone with the Ionic Electric over the most fuel efficient Elantra. If your electrical rates are lower, that gap widens. Add the reduced maintenance costs and the time savings of skipping fueling stops, and it starts to look pretty appealing to a lot of people. How many rentals could you get for longer trips with that $1000+ annual savings? Or maybe you give that $1000+ savings to your kid for gas money so he can come to you (and bring his laundry). Another way to look at it: the Ionic Electric is basically giving you most of a Challenge car every year in actual money saved.
Whether or not this is a good car; this is a marketing and styling screw up. The last time Ford did something this stupid, aka the Mazda-Mustang "Probe". They received enough hate mail that it got their damn attention.
They can call this a Maverick, a Pinto, or whatever they wish. It might be good enough to deserve Zephyr, Comet, Galaxy, or maybe LTD. They still have plenty of other names in the ol' Rolodex.
It's a testament to how much people like to argue that every practically every EV thread has people who like to list the drawbacks to owning one. Don't want one? Don't buy one. My wife's next car will be an EV, which will be our principal urban/suburban mode of transport. For fun and long journeys we'll continue to maintain our fleet of ICEs as well. My company pays my wife's gas as a perk, so the cost of operation isn't very important to us. I just like the damn things. The torque and the quietness is ideal for an urban setting.
Yep, the Mustang name is not appropriate at all, my marketing genius would call it the Model eT since it is so much like a Tesla. :)
Keith Tanner said:The problem is that the grille is one of the primary ways to slather brand identity on a car, because they all look exactly like each other :) I don't think we've seen a good solution to this yet - even Teslas have vestigial grilles (Model S) or blank spots where they should be (Model 3). Some designer needs to come up with a way to make a car recognizable without resorting to a fake grille.
The Mach-E implementation is weird but the grille and hood are pretty strong Mustang identifiers.
what is funny and ironic, Ford led the way with getting rid of the grill at one point. think of the original Taurus/Sable and the Merkur.
Didn't Ford say a while back that the were only going to be selling Mustangs and Trucks?
A friend pointed out that if Ford really wanted to get Elon Musk wound up, they'd call this car the Falcon. Which, honestly, would have been a good name anyway.
I really, really, really hope that Dodge's first serious EV will wear the Charger name.
Anyhow, an observation on EVs and charging and range: I realized last night that we have not charged our EV since Oct 9th. Oh, we plug it in every night - but gone looking for a charging station and had to wait, akin to getting gas? Not for six weeks, and we won't have to do it again until the next road trip. The car is just always ready. I think I'd thought about this before we got the car, but never really understood what it meant. It's the exact opposite of range anxiety. You just stop thinking about it.
I wonder if Ford plans to make replacement parts available to E-Mustang owners. That could be significant when the competition is Tesla.
STM317 said:In reply to alfadriver :
63% of US housing units have a garage or carport
Over 80% of current EV owners charge at home. If you can afford an EV, chances are really good you can have a charger, even if you don't have a garage. So, like I said, People considering an EV, or owning an EV pretty much all have the ability to charge at home. People that can't charge at home are less likely to buy one for any number of reasons, finances, dense population center making public transit more efficient, etc.
True, I have a 2-car garage and big-ish driveway. BUT....my daily driver (GTI) usually parks on the street and/or at the low end of teh driveway, with my Porsche and my (insert current project car) in the Garage, the wife's SUV and the rally car in the front of the driveway. So for someone like me, even with a garage in a suburban house, I'd have to run power minimum 20 feet from my garage to charge, assuming I have a daily driver EV, since I'm not moving the race car or the Porsche into the street or asking my wife to park there (I already kicked her car out of the garage).
You may say "well, most people don't have 6 cars like you." True. Most poeple in my neighborhood also have 2-car garages.....full of stuff, not cars. They are mostly still parking in the driveway (or street for those with smaller driveways).
The only reason I mention those things is to say that a simple statistic about "who has a garage" doesn't really tell the whole story, since Americans proportionally don't use garages for parking, in my experience.....at least not in the 'burbs.
Keith Tanner said:Anyhow, an observation on EVs and charging and range: I realized last night that we have not charged our EV since Oct 9th. Oh, we plug it in every night - but gone looking for a charging station and had to wait, akin to getting gas? Not for six weeks, and we won't have to do it again until the next road trip. The car is just always ready. I think I'd thought about this before we got the car, but never really understood what it meant. It's the exact opposite of range anxiety. You just stop thinking about it.
And that is exactly why I want an EV as my every day commuter car. It's why I've wanted an EV for years. Especially when I was commuting 100 miles/day and filling up the damn car every 3-4 days.
There was a short bit on NPR about the Mach E. They interviewed a 71 year man who said he always wanted a Mustang but for various reasons could never justify a 2-door coupe. He hopes to be on the pre-order list for this one. This is the market Ford is aiming at for this car.
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