Aaaand the "Mustang Mach-E" has been leaked

Here's my take on this "Mustang" it.  Trendy, boring, but less ugly than a Tesla.

I have been waiting for EV to develop enough to where they actually make sense to own and it sounds like we're getting there for new vehicles.  However, will they make sense in the used car market?  I usually drive vehicles that are close to 10 years old or more and have saved tons of money by driving older cars. EVs claim to have lower maintenance costs when new, but what is the longevity of those expensive electronics and batteries?  Will they have enough life left in them when they are 10 years old to still be worth buying, or will owning an old EV be more cost prohibitive than buying a new one.  Another question I have is for current EV owners that charge at home.  How much has your monthly electric bill changed since you started driving an EV?

There’s good data on battery longevity if you look for it. Short version: better than you think.

It’s  too early to tell what the effect on our electric bill will be exactly, but it will be higher. No surprise. The gasoline bill is lower. Also no surprise. I figured a while back that 60 miles in the EV cost about $1.80. My 1985 CRX (not a gas guzzler) would have been in the $5.xx range if memory serves. The E39 M5, almost $11. 

Keith Tanner said:

There’s good data on battery longevity if you look for it. Short version: better than you think.

It’s  too early to tell what the effect on our electric bill will be exactly, but it will be higher. No surprise. The gasoline bill is lower. Also no surprise. I figured a while back that 60 miles in the EV cost about $1.80. My 1985 CRX (not a gas guzzler) would have been in the $5.xx range if memory serves. The E39 M5, almost $11. 

Those are pretty darn good numbers for $ per mile.  The old Jetta TDI we used to have would be in the $3.00 to $3.50 for 60 miles. (base on current fuel prices in Texas.) 

Keith Tanner said:

Knurled. said:

There's generally about a gallon or so of fuel in your tank that you cannot use, and a gallon or so of space that you can never get fuel into.  It is sort of the same thing.

I have some German friends that will bounce their cars while refuelling to get rid of those pesky bubbles, and then try to get as far as possible before refuelling. The perfect drive is when the car stalls out on the off-ramp and you coast up to the pump. It's nerve-wracking to road trip with them in convoy.

That sounds like the sort of E36 M3 that the first-generation German who I used to work with would pull, so I have absolutely no doubt as to the veracity of your anecdote.

She also would save burned-out lightbulbs for future re-use, in case they weren't COMPLETELY burnt-out.  As if maybe the reservoir of light inside the bulb was maybe just inaccessible, and letting the bulb marinate in a carboard box for a few years allowed it to settle out and become accessible again.

/Eastern European descent.  SLAV PRECISION.  You add fuel when you need it, you use it when you need to, it all balances in the end, there are bigger things to worry about.

Keith Tanner said:

A friend pointed out that if Ford really wanted to get Elon Musk wound up, they'd call this car the Falcon. Which, honestly, would have been a good name anyway.

I really, really, really hope that Dodge's first serious EV will wear the Charger name.

They used to joke that they should have called the Shelby Charger the "Turbo Charger". (you can already see where I am going with this, get ready to groan)

Dodge has a history of slapping the Charger name on whatever is currently trendy, or whatever they think is trendy.  So yes, electric Charger.  But since it would be electric, it would have to be just a little bit different then before, so they'd have to give it a name like Super Charger.

Anyhow, an observation on EVs and charging and range: I realized las

t night that we have not charged our EV since Oct 9th. Oh, we plug it in every night - but gone looking for a charging station and had to wait, akin to getting gas? Not for six weeks, and we won't have to do it again until the next road trip. The car is just always ready. I think I'd thought about this before we got the car, but never really understood what it meant. It's the exact opposite of range anxiety. You just stop thinking about it.

You know, you're not making it easier for me to not want a Model 3.

irish44j said:

STM317 said:

In reply to alfadriver :

63% of US housing units have a garage or carport

Over 80% of current EV owners charge at home. If you can afford an EV, chances are really good you can have a charger, even if you don't have a garage. So, like I said, People considering an EV, or owning an EV pretty much all have the ability to charge at home. People that can't charge at home are less likely to buy one for any number of reasons, finances, dense population center making public transit more efficient, etc.

 

True, I have a 2-car garage and big-ish driveway. BUT....my daily driver (GTI) usually parks on the street and/or at the low end of teh driveway, with my Porsche and my (insert current project car) in the Garage, the wife's SUV and the rally car in the front of the driveway. So for someone like me, even with a garage in a suburban house, I'd have to run power minimum 20 feet from my garage to charge, assuming I have a daily driver EV, since I'm not moving the race car or the Porsche into the street or asking my wife to park there (I already kicked her car out of the garage).

You may say "well, most people don't have 6 cars like you." True. Most poeple in my neighborhood also have 2-car garages.....full of stuff, not cars. They are mostly still parking in the driveway (or street for those with smaller driveways). 

The only reason I mention those things is to say that a simple statistic about "who has a garage" doesn't really tell the whole story, since Americans proportionally don't use garages for parking, in my experience.....at least not in the 'burbs. 

You should check out Tuna's thread on his new Bolt. He's got a typical suburban house with a project in the garage. His charger is mounted to the outside wall of the garage and he charges his Bolt in his driveway. It even has a "remote start" option that turns the heater on and uses house energy to warm the car before he leaves his house without depleting range. Most people in typical suburban situations like yours can find a way to charge at home if they want to, and it doesn't have to be a big deal, or huge hassle even if they don't park inside of their garage.

bigben said:

Another question I have is for current EV owners that charge at homes.  How much has your monthly electric bill changed since you started driving an EV?

General rule of thumb is 3 miles traveled for every 1Kwh of electricity. So take battery capacity and multiply by your electric rate. So the simple math for something like  a high end Tesla with a 100kwh battery is: 100kwh * say $0.13 per kWh for home electric rate = $13 for about 300 miles of range. If your electric rate is lower, the cost goes down (just like paying less for gas reduces cost for an ICE).. If the weather is cold, and your range drops the cost goes up (just like an ICE vehicle in winter). So if you drive 1000 miles per month (about average), then your bill would go up about $43.33. That's just a simple case without tiered electrical rates, etc but it gives you an idea of how to do your own calcs.

Fueleconomy.gov also has a great comparison tool that lets you compare vehicles side by side. It clearly lists cost per 25 miles for any vehicle with fuel economy on the window sticker in the US based on an average conditions like driving style, average electric rates, etc. You can customize the parameters to your exact situation too. So if your electric rate is lower than average, and you drive more highway than average, you can make those changes and get a very close idea of what running costs might be.

In reply to captdownshift :

That is amazing!  

I watch the live unveiling of the Mach-E, it isn't nearly as ugly as the picture makes it! You can see the evidence of a lot of Human Centered Design usage in the development of this car. It seems it was made with the future state of the automotive world in mind vs what has always worked and what people have bought in the past. 

I'm pretty excited for it. 

Looks like some trims get the fake grille a few here have requested.

The configurator is already up:

https://www.ford.com/buy/mach-e/build-and-price.html?config=WANAB-CGW-2021-CX727#/model

Plot twist, the curb weight is lower than a Challenger. 

pointofdeparture said:

Looks like some trims get the fake grille a few here have requested.

Channeling some F Pace there?

So for scale, this thing is shorter in length than a current Mustang as well as the Ford Edge, but it's got a longer wheelbase than both. It's also 3 inches shorter in height than an Escape. So it's fairly compact (more like a Macan than Cayenne) and the wheels are really pushed to the corners which should improve both performance and interior space.

Probably the closest comparison's available right now:

STM317 said:

irish44j said:

STM317 said:

In reply to alfadriver :

63% of US housing units have a garage or carport

Over 80% of current EV owners charge at home. If you can afford an EV, chances are really good you can have a charger, even if you don't have a garage. So, like I said, People considering an EV, or owning an EV pretty much all have the ability to charge at home. People that can't charge at home are less likely to buy one for any number of reasons, finances, dense population center making public transit more efficient, etc.

 

True, I have a 2-car garage and big-ish driveway. BUT....my daily driver (GTI) usually parks on the street and/or at the low end of teh driveway, with my Porsche and my (insert current project car) in the Garage, the wife's SUV and the rally car in the front of the driveway. So for someone like me, even with a garage in a suburban house, I'd have to run power minimum 20 feet from my garage to charge, assuming I have a daily driver EV, since I'm not moving the race car or the Porsche into the street or asking my wife to park there (I already kicked her car out of the garage).

You may say "well, most people don't have 6 cars like you." True. Most poeple in my neighborhood also have 2-car garages.....full of stuff, not cars. They are mostly still parking in the driveway (or street for those with smaller driveways). 

The only reason I mention those things is to say that a simple statistic about "who has a garage" doesn't really tell the whole story, since Americans proportionally don't use garages for parking, in my experience.....at least not in the 'burbs. 

You should check out Tuna's thread on his new Bolt. He's got a typical suburban house with a project in the garage. His charger is mounted to the outside wall of the garage and he charges his Bolt in his driveway. It even has a "remote start" option that turns the heater on and uses house energy to warm the car before he leaves his house without depleting range. Most people in typical suburban situations like yours can find a way to charge at home if they want to, and it doesn't have to be a big deal, or huge hassle even if they don't park inside of their garage.

Yes, all correct. It is glorious to walk out, it's 40 degrees, spitting rain, but you get into your perfectly warmed up car sitting in the driveway, no battery used. Seats are heated up, steering wheel is heated up, it's just wonderful.

I installed the 22V charger myself, and it came with some learning curve because I had never run conduit before. I think the total cost with the charger and materials was around $750. Not as cheap as I would have hoped, but thenm again, I really doubt that this is the last EV we will own.

STM317 said:

Its quite eye opening how much more efficient the Tesla motors are:

Audi @ 95/204 = .47 kwh/mile
Ford @ 98.8/300 & 75.7/230 = .33 kwh/mile
Jaguar @ 90/234 = .38 kwh/mile
Tesla @ 54/250 & 75/310 = .21-.24 kwh/mile

Some of this has to be attributed to aerodynamics, but not sure all of it. 

Some of that might be explained by frontal area - the Tesla is the only car of the bunch. It would be really interesting to compare the older Model S to the next-gen Model 3, that will tell us how much of it is motor design and/or software. I know the software is a significant contributor.

I was thinking about something on the way in to work this morning. Does it make sense for EVs to come with a charger, or for the owner to take responsibility for sourcing their own? The former implies that when you sell your car, the charger goes with it. The latter implies that the charger is a piece of infrastructure for your house. Every EV comes with a charger (Leaf, Tesla, Bolt, Kona, Ford all do) but they vary in their capabilities.

The standard Bolt charger is a Level 1 that will fall behind if you drive more than 50 miles per day. Same with the Leaf S, which refers to it as a "trickle charger".

The higher level Leafs (Leaves?) come with a 5.3 kW charger. The Teslas come with a Level 2 charger but you will have to buy a $35 adapter to get to that level. It appears the Kona comes with a Level 2 as well, but that's not 100% clear from the site. The Mach-E site says the included charger will do "22 miles of range in an hour" of charging given the right vehicle specification, which looks to be standard Level 2 based on the numbers above (22 out of 300 mi range, 98.8 kWh -> 7.2 kW charger). These included chargers all are basically overgrown laptop power supplies as far as I can tell, so they're not as slick or as good at cable management as a wall-mounted unit.

GM sells a Level 2 charger and there are numerous aftermarket options for the same. Ford and Tesla each offer an upgraded charger that's about 50% faster. All of these alternate chargers run about $500 or so. That extra cost may be a major reason why the Bolt and base Leaf don't come with them, although a replacement OE trickle charger isn't all that much less expensive.

The base model Leaf and the Bolt obviously expect you to pony up for an alternate charger, making the charger part of your house infrastructure as Tuna is expecting. The higher model Leafs, the Ford, the Kona and the Teslas can realistically be used with the included charger and you'd probably pass it along with the car at the time of sale. Which is the better model?

captdownshift said:

Plot twist, the curb weight is lower than a Challenger. 

I'm not sure if this is a joke or based on actual info - but given that Challengers weigh from 3900-4400 lbs (!), it's quite plausible that the shorter range Mach-E will fall in that range. Model 3s are in about the same range as the Challenger.

I'd be pretty interested in one for SWMBO's next car if the range was somewhere north of double what it is. Living in Texas, the fact that I couldn't drive to my inlaws (north DFW to west Houston) without needing to recharge, then lack of charging capability while I'm there, so no driving around or getting home, just kills EV use for me. For those who'll say to just keep and ICE vehicle for road trip use, I can't justify having another car just for that, and mine is too small for trips. Hopefully in the next 5-10 years the range and charge speed will make one more feasible for me.

shagles said:

I'd be pretty interested in one for SWMBO's next car if the range was somewhere north of double what it is. Living in Texas, the fact that I couldn't drive to my inlaws (north DFW to west Houston) without needing to recharge, then lack of charging capability while I'm there, so no driving around or getting home, just kills EV use for me. For those who'll say to just keep and ICE vehicle for road trip use, I can't justify having another car just for that, and mine is too small for trips. Hopefully in the next 5-10 years the range and charge speed will make one more feasible for me.

Not sure for the rest of the manufacturers, but for Tesla I couldn't find a reasonable trip that would be become unreasonable in terms of stopping halfway for a charger  (about 15-20 minutes, go grab a bite). And when you're there, get an extension cord to plug into the house. 

I do think that we're going to end up with keeping the minvian and having that for long trips, and eventually will each have a smaller EV for around town. 

Need to make some apologies.  Sorry for taking this thread to an EV discussion instead of a Mustang Mach-E discussion.  Maybe we should start a separate thread? Sorry if I came off harsh, it wasn't intended.  I was trying to equate my personal views as to why, I think, the average consumer is hesitant on going EV.  It's a big mental change for most folks (me included) to rethink how they do things.  I can see younger drivers making the switch easier than older ones. 

Most still seem to have a range under 150 miles.  Sure, for your average driver and their commute, they would never deplete it.  However, I wonder how much of the reluctance and mention of range anxiety comes from a "what do I do when I'm about to run out"?  It's kinda what I alluded to regarding gas stations.  If you end up driving a lot in a day, there's a gas station on every corner.  That's not the case (although it is getting better) with electric.  Does it happen every day?  Of course not.  It can happen however, and if you do run out, you can't grab a pack of electric like you can a gallon of gas.  Again, a bit of a fringe case, but no  good option to overcome it. Heck, I don't have to hunt for a gas station, they're everywhere.  Until this thread, I didn't even know there were supercharging stations in Austin and see them at retail stores every so often, but not as frequent as gas.  I wonder if that's one of the underlying barriers for most people.  If Shell/Mobil/BP and/or 7-11 installed charging ports at every gas station, people would be much more familiar with the idea and probably considering buying an EV more then.  

For me, I'm not in the market for a new car at all, so it's not even on my radar.  If we can get to the point that I am shopping new, I'll be seriously considering a hybrid because it does take the strain off fuel use, but still gives me the ability to refuel/recharge anywhere when I need it.  Plus, they've come down in price and are comparative to a regular fuel one.  An EV won't be on my list because what I could afford would only be low range vehicles, but if it's 10 years from now, that might be much different.

-Rob

This Mach-E is not a 'compliance' car, using the Mustang name is a major corporate commitment.  

In reply to mtn :

In a lot of places, I can see how that would be the case. But Anna TX to Katy TX gets unreasonable for me. Its already a 4hr 20 minute drive, but having to factor in a stop to charge, I'd have to take a different route that is severely out of the way and adds a full hour to the trip. Plus, and I realize that this is even more specific to me, having to stop with a sleeping toddler is 100% a no-go. That also isn't a "long" drive for Texas. A trip to South Padre Island would add over 2 hours to a 9 1/2 hour drive in an EV. 

That's a fair point on the extension cord though. I was just thinking about the wall mounted chargers that I've seen. Totally forgot that there are ones that plug into an outlet. Could you get a full charge in a night with a 110V outlet charger?

nimblemotorsports said:

This Mach-E is not a 'compliance' car, using the Mustang name is a major corporate blunder.

FTFY.

The thing looks ok to me for what it is. I would be interested in checking it out if I was looking at BEVs.