Adolf Hates R-Comps

Gimp wrote:

P71 wrote: Still though, r-comps are not "stock"...

And again...

moxnix wrote:

kreb wrote: No street car comes with R-comps,

The Lotus Elise Sport comes with the Yokohama ADVAN A048 a 60 Treadwear Track and Competition DOT tire. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=ADVAN+A048

A Lotus is not representative of normal cars. Also:

STOCK CATEGORY The following make/models are not eligible for the Stock Category:

• Lotus Elan M100

• Lotus Elise SC (2008-10)

• Lotus Exige S & S/C (2006-10)

• Lotus Sport Elise (2006)

Ding ding ding!

SCCA 2010

If you don't get 50+ runs on a fresh set of R-compound tires, you have an alignment issue or your car is morbidly obese. Even the softest, stickiest A6 should hold up for 50 runs. They won't be "fresh", but should be within a reasonable window compared to a brand-new tire.

Overall, I'm still split on the issue of R-compounds in stock classes. I have strong opinions on both sides of the argument.

Tom Heath wrote: If you don't get 50+ runs on a fresh set of R-compound tires, you have an alignment issue or your car is morbidly obese. Even the softest, stickiest A6 should hold up for 50 runs. They won't be "fresh", but should be within a reasonable window compared to a brand-new tire. Overall, I'm still split on the issue of R-compounds in stock classes. I have strong opinions on both sides of the argument.

I did 250+ runs in 2 seasons (150+ were me, the rest were dual/quad drivers) and drove to all of the events on the same tires. Won class multiple times and the regional season championship in class. All for the price of 1.5 r-comps in the same size...

This year we will participate in 30-35 events on set of tires (haven't decided what yet between 615K, RE11, and Star Specs) with 2 drivers in every event and driving to all of them.

Also why I was going for a 10% allowance on the tread wear rating, this way cars with sticky tires from the factory wouldn't be unduly punished and it should push more pedestrian cars away from the more sporty cars, since they typically have worse tires.

Hmm. the A008RSIIs I used on my V8 RX7 in the pacific northwest were better in the rain than the BFG Comp T/A non-R comps that were on there, or any number of normal performance tires (and vastly better than any all seasons). And a lot of us that were autocrossing in the rain on those tires constantly amazed newbies to the scene who were wondering how those apparently bald tires were gripping so well out on the wet track. I used the A008RSIIs as street tires on that car, as well, and got 15k combined miles of street/track use, then switched to A032Rs as dual purpose tires. The soft compound heated up even in the wet and sort of squeegeed the water out of the way (at least at street speeds and autocross speeds. Wouldn't have wanted to do it at road race speeds)

Not a 'stock' car, unless I missed the stocker V8 RX-7 imports... keep specific examples germane to the class that's being discussed.

Eric G

His comments RE: tire cost were most definitely relevant, regardless of what car they were on FWIW.

Nathan

P71 wrote: I did 250+ runs in 2 seasons (150+ were me, the rest were dual/quad drivers) *and* drove to all of the events on the same tires. Won class multiple times and the regional season championship in class. All for the price of 1.5 r-comps in the same size... This year we will participate in 30-35 events on set of tires (haven't decided what yet between 615K, RE11, and Star Specs) with 2 drivers in every event and driving to all of them.

And even if you bought R compounds, you'd spend less in total than a guy who bought a new stock Mini Cooper S and runs it on stock tires (and then chunks the tires and has to bey new stock tires, too).

The issue of cost is a non starter for getting into autocross, when the level of cost is a voluntary one. You chose to run a cheap car in a stock class. You didn't buy a new Z06 and run it in stock, did you? I'm sure if you wanted to run competitively against a stock Z06, you'd have to spend vastly more than you are now even with stock tires. Are you going to say that Z06s shouldn't be allowed because it costs to much to be competitive with one for your tastes and budget?

Autocrossing is going to be for fun. There will ALWAYS be someone with more budget and/or more skill than you (unless you're already Mark Daddio or Greg Fordahl). I remember when Curt Ormiston won that 1.3 million dollar Washington state Lottery. At the time we both had identical '74 911s and both ran in BSCC. He was a great driver, but I was competitive. And then he took it to Meaney West and it became just waaaaay fast. It happens. It's only a $2 trophy if getting a trophy is that important.

mkiisupra wrote:

Hmm. the A008RSIIs I used on my V8 RX7 in the pacific northwest were better in the rain than the BFG Comp T/A non-R comps that were on there, or any number of normal performance tires (and vastly better than any all seasons). And a lot of us that were autocrossing in the rain on those tires constantly amazed newbies to the scene who were wondering how those apparently bald tires were gripping so well out on the wet track. I used the A008RSIIs as street tires on that car, as well, and got 15k combined miles of street/track use, then switched to A032Rs as dual purpose tires. The soft compound heated up even in the wet and sort of squeegeed the water out of the way (at least at street speeds and autocross speeds. Wouldn't have wanted to do it at road race speeds)

Not a 'stock' car, unless I missed the stocker V8 RX-7 imports... keep specific examples germane to the class that's being discussed. Eric G

I was discussing and replying to the comment about R compounds being able to work/not work in the rain. Nowhere in there was I talking about the car being stock or implying that the way R compounds worked had anything to do with a car being stock or not.

P71 wrote:

Chris_V wrote: I've raced with them for many years, as well. Greg knows that car inside and out and has owned/raced it for decades. So not only is he a multi-time national champion in ANYTHING, that particular car is wired into his hindbrain in a way that pretty much no one else's car will ever be, so it's not surprising that HE can win with it, same with Jodi. But that doesn't mean that anyone else can get into that car and be even slightly competitive. Listen, the deal still is that R comps are NOT necessarily a cost-prohibitive way of going. My own RX7 above (which Greg did the suspension setup on) was on R comps for 5 years (only used two sets in all that time) and cost less than a lot of cars in class. I also didn't have multi-adjustible suspension (Tokiko HPs and Tokiko sport springs). And the limiting factor in being competitive will ALWAYS be the driver. Limiting to stock tires won't change that, nor will it end up costing less (ever see stock tires chunk up from being overheated in competition use? To really do it properly, you will STILL want a second set of wheels and tires, so the savings might be less than a hundred bucks a season. When you start with a $20-25k new-er car, that's chump change). And if someone wants to be competetive, they will STILL be at the same disadvantage to winning based on skill running against the same people.

But back to the main arguement, which is cost, I think your theoritical #'s are way off of reality. For 205/50/15's (typical Miata/Honda size) a ST legal Bridgestone RE11 (the current "hot" tire) is $97 each. Even if you shave them they'll last a whole season, so $400 for a set per year. A6's are $210 *each*. Even if by some miracle you get a whole season (8-10 autocrosses at 3-5 runs each) you're still looking at $840 for tires. God forbid it rains, then you'll need a set of wets at $210 each as well. Tire Rack That's a huge difference and you can't tell me with a straight face that 1 set of r-comps will last that long. It's expensive, and that's all there is to it. Still though, r-comps are not "stock" and do not fit the intent of the original rules. That's why there needs to be change.

So you're now telling me that I didn't get 15k miles and a couple years of street driving and weekend autocrossing out of each set of tires on that car? OK. I guess I must have f*cking hallucinated that lifespan and actually bought 27 sets of tires in the 5 years I owned the car, and merely "forgot" about it. And I wasn't able to build the car and autocross on R comps in actuality, due to only making $7.50/hour at the time because R compound tires (we're discussing cost, not what class they are on) is a barrier to anyone to be able to autocross inexpensively.

I get it. YOU don't want to spend any money to go autocrossing. But as a barrier to actually getting out there, as in the OP, R comps are no more of a cost than buying a new car to go autocrossing and that happens all the time, too. Or are you saying that spending $800 for tires to autocross for a season it outrageous, but spending $30k for a new autocross car isn't? I spent $400 for those tires, and drove them for a couple years on the street and track. Then I spent another $400 on A032Rs and drove THEM for a couple years on the street and autocross (and they were apparently still on the car a couple years after I sold it, too)

Again, as a cost, they are no more a barrier to joining a Stock class than a Mini Cooper S payment is.

P71 wrote:

Gimp wrote:

P71 wrote: Still though, r-comps are not "stock"...

And again...

moxnix wrote:

kreb wrote: No street car comes with R-comps,

The Lotus Elise Sport comes with the Yokohama ADVAN A048 a 60 Treadwear Track and Competition DOT tire. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=ADVAN+A048

A Lotus is not representative of normal cars. Also: STOCK CATEGORY The following make/models are not eligible for the Stock Category: * Lotus Elan M100 * Lotus Elise SC (2008-10) * Lotus Exige S & S/C (2006-10) * Lotus Sport Elise (2006) Ding ding ding! SCCA 2010

A Lotus Sport Elise is not the same thing as an Elise "Sport". It's an extremely rare special edition 2006 Elise (50 imported) with special bits from the "Lotus Sport" factory tuning house, including some trick adjustable Ohlins dampers. For the first few years, any normal Elise with the "sport" or "track" option packages would have showed up wearing a048s.

Holy hell man, loosen up!

Again, my MAIN argument is that r-comps are not appropriate for a "stock" level of preparation! I have no problem spending money to autocross, in fact I don't even run stock class because I want more mods. The point is it's stupid to put $800 worth of tires on a $5000 Miata (E-Stock Nat'l Champ) or 924S (Runner-up) a season and have to trailer the damn things! You have to remember that Nationals is one berkeleying event. There are dozens upon dozens of regions who hold dozens of autocrosses for dozens of participants. Those local guys do have a newer car and it is stock because they can only afford the payment/can't blow the warranty yet. They are the basis of the sport and should be able to drive in and race in the exact same car on the exact same tires. TIME and EXTRA cost is a barrier to entry. Dragging 4 tires and/or a trailer to every event for the "Stock" class is berkeleying stupid.

Comparing your r-comps from a decade ago (that are roughly equivalent to the ST tires of today) is irrelevant in terms of both cost and performance. Show me data from 08 or 09!

Again, it is NOT cost (though r-comps are irrefutably more expensive to run), it is the PRINCIPAL. STOCK should mean STOCK, STREET LEGAL AND USABLE tires that won't get the participant pulled over! R-Comps belong on modded cars (SP, P, SM, etc).

In reply to P71:

The advice to "loosen up" is good, even better when used by the one who suggested it. It's the lead-by-example concept, is it not? Berating someone because he/she holds a different opinion pretty much knocks over the pedestal on which you've placed yourself.

Your opinion is valid, but runs counter to a norm that was accepted and established close to thirty years ago. If you (and others) are convinced your proposals are the better than what's currently on the books, lobby the rules makers and implement the change.