alfadriver wrote: Reality rarely matches preception. Or have you missed that the 4.6 and 5.0 and 5.4 engines from ford have rods that are made from powder metal? And are cracked?
Yip. They are great for the perceived application, but they don't give me warm fuzzies all around.
5.7 Hemi's come with PM cracked rods too, at least what is listed in the FSM. They are way more robust then the modular stuff from Ford, IMO. I still don't want to detonate the engine and "vaporize" a rod.
Brian
I've got nothing against the dry intake manifolds. Its just the ones that run coolant through them. Ford figured it out, and added an aluminum coolant crossover. I don't know what GM did (other than discontinue the traditional small block V8).
Heck, they may know what they're doing with regard to the plastic oil pans, but it seems like this kind of stuff always goes through an "oopsie, we didn't think about that possibility" phase. I'd prefer to wait until that phase is over.
m4ff3w wrote:stan wrote: I remember some mag out of the 70s that had composite plastic wheels on the cover. Guess that went nowhere...(afaik).'89 CSX had 'em.
i'm pretty sure the wheels were made out of steel and had plastic molded to them- my mom had an 86 Mustang that had wheels like that and GM also used wheels like that on mid 70's Monte Carlos.
How about an acrylic oil pan so we can see our oil level and quality? Do away with the dip stick.
ReverendDexter wrote: I've got no issue with composite intakes or oil pans. Especially intakes: how is something that is cheaper, lighter, and transmits less heat to the intake charge a bad thing?
my only problem with plastic oil pans is the drain plug sealing / over tightening / cross threading problems that will surely show up ... we already have them with steel / aluminum
wbjones wrote:ReverendDexter wrote: I've got no issue with composite intakes or oil pans. Especially intakes: how is something that is cheaper, lighter, and transmits less heat to the intake charge a bad thing?my only problem with plastic oil pans is the drain plug sealing / over tightening / cross threading problems that will surely show up ... we already have them with steel / aluminum
Don't worry. Your tap and die set will work even better on plastic / nylon / UHMW composite. Hell, even small cracks will probably be repairable.
Tyler H wrote: How about an acrylic oil pan so we can see our oil level and quality? Do away with the dip stick.
That is just crazy talk.......
The skid plate for my mercedes is made of metal, they didn't use plastic for everything in the 70s.
I've got mixed feelings about the whole plastic engine parts thing. I just read an article in Car and Driver (I think) about high-tech gas tanks for hybrids that they call "ship in a bottle" tanks. They naturally include the fuel pump and various other doodads which are presumably irretrievably encased in the tank and will necessitate the replacement of the whole unit at some ungodly cost when any part of it fails. I see it as a way for the manufacturers to ensure a nice replacement parts revenue stream. Fuel pump is bad? Sure, you just need our nice "ship in a bottle" fuel tank assembly for a list price of $1789.00 plus tax. Lovely. And the motivation behind the plastic tank is a few milligrams less fuel vapor released into the environment via the permeability of the tank and various related components.
I've experience a "meltdown" of a plastic intake on a GM 3800. I will probably never buy another GM product because of the way their dealer handled the situation and because I had to pay a tad less than $2000. to fix a vehicle that was just out of warranty.
Give me steel oilpans and aluminum intakes. Not high-tech engineered plastic that will save three ounces and self-destruct as soon as it's out of warranty. I remember when radiators were made out of brass, and if you kept up with changing your coolant, they'd last forever. Now, they've got plastic tanks, and they're guaranteed to leak when they're about ten years old. Plastics are good for manufacturers, but they're bad for customers with a memory.
Why couldn't they make the plastic oil pan with an insert of steel,or some other metal for the drain plug to thread into? If the drain plug is your biggest worry then I think that is an easy fix. I am sure there are plenty of plow truck owners that would welcome a well built plastic pan that is protected. I say that because I know a lot of people that plow snow with their pickups,and most have had to replace a rotted oil pan on the trucks at one point or another.
Many of todays engines have rods made of powdered metal and use the cracked journal end for simplicity. eliminates a bunch of machining and cost.
In reply to Mazdax605:
They could, and probably would, which would result in spinning the insert in the plastic, or even cracking a giant hole out of the pan
novaderrik wrote:m4ff3w wrote:i'm pretty sure the wheels were made out of steel and had plastic molded to them- my mom had an 86 Mustang that had wheels like that and GM also used wheels like that on mid 70's Monte Carlos.stan wrote: I remember some mag out of the 70s that had composite plastic wheels on the cover. Guess that went nowhere...(afaik).
No sir.
They weighed 8 or 9 lbs, in a 15x6.5 wheel.
Mazdax605 wrote: Why couldn't they make the plastic oil pan with an insert of steel,or some other metal for the drain plug to thread into?
Why couldn't they just switch to plastic drain plugs too?
Good point
2L bottles have a pretty common thread pattern. 
alfadriver wrote: Both GM and Chrysler have announced that they are hiring 1000 engineers in 2011. ... IIRC, Hyundai/Kia are still hiring, too.
I'll graduate in 2012 with an Energy Engineering degree. Let me work on some of this new hybrid and fuel efficient stuff! Any internships to keep me busy this summer?!
Basically, I see a lot of naysayers who have no real idea what OEM's test when they come out with products. You make assumptions, but apparently (and obviously to me, at least) don't know the reality of development testing.
Which is why I would love to see many of you join me in SE MI and become part of the industry. There are opportunities, and as the industry expands back to 12-14M units in the US and 16-18M units in Europe, opportunities will be around and expand over the next decade.
For my personal job, I'm aware of Euro V & VI, LEVIII, and Tier 3 to keep me very busy until I retire.
Like I keep saying, put your money were your mouth is, find out the real reasons new materials work so well. And will continue to work well beyond their warantee periods.
Eric
Careerbuilder lists 650 engineering jobs for Detroit..... Too bad they are trying to hit home runs on the descriptions with an available pool of scrubs. 
Brian
alfadriver wrote: Like I keep saying, put your money were your mouth is, find out the real reasons new materials work so well. And will continue to work well beyond their warantee periods. Eric
Well, that's a real nice sales pitch, but it's really just empty talk. If anyone needs to step up and "put their money where their mouth is", it's the manufacturers. If these new materials are so good, then reassure your customers with a longer standard warranty.
As an Audi buyer nearly ten years ago, we had the peace of mind knowing that our new A6 had a 4-year, 50k mile bumper-to-bumper warranty. In addition, any and all maintenance costs, right down to wiper blades would be covered. That's the kind of warranty that makes a loyal customer.
I would like to see all manufacturers extend their bumper-to-bumper warranties to 6 years, 100k miles, and include all maintenance for at least the first 3 years, 50k miles.
Last I checked Ford's standard warranty is 3 years, 36k miles. That's not much of a vote of confidence in a well-engineered product with the latest high-tech materials.
I confess, the announcement of needed engineers down there intriques me. How hard is is for one from the great white to get a work permit down there for that kind of job? Are the big guys willing to work one through the process? Cost of living is WAY less than here in the Toronto area (for one).....
In reply to 1988RedT2:
The useful part "life" is/was supposed to be 150k, but then the bean counters get involved.....But most failures happen in the very short term, usually 30k. This is why there isn't any more warranty after 36k.
Brian
Right about now most of these items mentioned are (I would presume) mostly driven by cost savings. Given the relative health of the auto industry as a unit, I say the fact that you can still buy a new Ford is a testament to how some of these things are working. I don't remember many warranty claims for rod metallurgy issues, for example, but a cracked rod is still superior and cheaper in many ways.
warantee lenghts and actual testing generally have little to do with each other. Especially part durability.
But, if one wants to base 2010-2020 decisions on stuff made between 1980-2000, well, that's not exactly my problem.
And don't be fooled by the popular image of GM and Chrysler- they are doing a lot better than you think. And their cars are a lot better than you think. Maybe not as good as the cross town rivals... 
Think of it this way- if any in the auto industry had failure and error rates near .1% of the computer industry, we'd be out of business next week. Moreso if the life span is put into any kind of thought.
That's very much why I have full confidence in plastic oil pans. And why working in the industry would be an eye opener.
1988RedT2 wrote: Well, that's a real nice sales pitch, but it's really just empty talk. If anyone needs to step up and "put their money where their mouth is", it's the manufacturers. If these new materials are so good, then reassure your customers with a longer standard warranty.
Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted. Why would somebody put a guarantee on a box? Hmmm, very interesting.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Go on, I'm listening.
Tommy: Here's the way I see it, Ted. Guy puts a fancy guarantee on a box 'cause he wants you to feel all warm and toasty inside.
Ted Nelson, Customer: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: 'Course it does. Why shouldn't it? Ya figure you put that little box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter, am I right, Ted? [chuckles until he sees that Ted is not laughing]
Ted Nelson, Customer: [impatiently] What's your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy; well, we're not buying it. He sneaks into your house once, that's all it takes. The next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser, and your daughter's knocked up. I seen it a hundred times.
Ted Nelson, Customer: But why do they put a guarantee on the box?
Tommy: Because they know all they sold ya was a guaranteed piece of E36 M3. That's all it is, isn't it? Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for now, for your customer's sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality product from me.
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