Advice for brake pads, etc. Prepping street car for autocross and HPDE.

I'm looking for some recommendations for pads for street and autocross. Dust isn't a big concern of mine, noise is more important but not crucial. It would be nice to have a pad that could handle both scenarios, plus be able to handle the heat of 15-20 minutes of track time. I'm planning to keep the current rotors. I'll give a summary of the car, in case it helps. Mostly street driven, will be doing some occasional autocross and possible track use.

2004 Lancer wagon, ralliart version. 3050 lbs, four wheel disks with antilock and brake force distribution. Front rotors are 10.9 inches, the solid rear rotors are 10.3. The car is a decent platform and nearly entirely stock (just a K&N panel filter and braided brake lines).

The ralliart is a rigid platform with extra chassis bracing and welds, plus different springs, shocks (just did new stock replacement KYBs), sway bars, retuned steering rack with less damping and 16 inch factory wheels.  Tires are Extreme Contact DWS 205/50/16s, about half tread remaining. Four speed auto, open diff. 162 HP, 160 trq, the latter is all in at only 4000 so the torque curve is really flat. 2.4 liters with 100 mm stroke and three step VVT, so good power down low. Planning to keep the stock wheels, unless I get into autocross more frequently, in which case I might replace them with a set of Miata wheels. With the Miata attached. Right now, I need to use this car for a year so I can see how motivated I am before buying another car. 

Right now I just have parts store ceramic pads, and the car stops fine, but would like a firmer pedal. I can smell brakes after just two hard stops. I've never been real happy with the pedal. I added braided lines, but I can't tell the difference between them and the stock rubber lines. The Evo 8 is built on the same platform, and one of the common mods is to add a support for the brake master to compensate for bulkhead flex, causing a softness in the pedal. I don't know if one of those braces would fit my car. The manual transmission Ralliart and Evo both use the same master cylinder, but unfortunately, the North American wagon only came with an auto, which has a different part number for the master cylinder. 

Brake fluid recommendations? Again, something that would be fine for street and autocross is my primary goal, but like the pads, I don't know if the same fluid would be up to 20 minutes on a track.

Finally, this is a 14 year old car with about 135k miles, after reading today's post about the sheared studs, I'm wondering if I should change the studs with the brake pads?  Brand and source recommendations for studs?

Anything else I'm not thinking of?

How fast are you?  I've found there aren't really track/street pads.  There are track pads which stop you on the track, but squeel, make a ton of dust and eat your rotors on the street, or there are street pads that melt within a few laps on the track.

I'd just swap between the two compounds honestly...

I've run both the HP + and the newer Street/Race pads from Hawk and I think they will deliver what you are after. The HP+ I ran on my 04 Legacy Wagon (3400 lbs) and did 4 or 5 open lapping days on with similar tires to you, the longest session being about 40 minutes on a track that is reasonably hard on brakes with no fade or problems. The Street/ Race I run on my 84 BMW E28 (3000 lbs) which I have also done around 5 open lapping days on with Hankook RS4 tires, they have also held up just fine with up 45 minutes of continuous lapping on the same track. Both pads will dust a lot and I had more squalling with HP + during daily driving, I recommend using Permatex Ceramic Extreme Brake Parts Lubricant to help keep things quiet and working properly, the Hawk grease that comes with the pads turns into smoke after your first lapping session. These pads will also eat rotors at about the same rate as the pads wear out so plan on replacing both together when the time comes, I personally run standard discs (no slotting or cross drilling) so they aren't that expensive to replace. I've run the HP + through winters here and the Street/Track down to 0C (32F) and they still work fine, especially after the first stop or two.

For fluid ATE Type 200 has worked well for me, it's affordable and easy to get, there are better fluids out there but the cost goes up. It's important to keep the fluid fresh, once a year should be your minimum replacement interval but more often is better.

Adam

The Esprit (RIP) would cook a brake pad in about 3 stops from 100.  As in on that 4th try, you're in tripple digits and you stand on the brakes and NOTHING HAPPENS.  I put some EBC Yellowstuff on and never had brake fade again, including 15 minute track times at Hallett.  I'm talking glowing rotors and full brakes.  The only down sides were increased dust and the first stop of the day took more pressure.  After that, it was fine.

As for brake fluid, I use synthetic DoT4 on my performance vehicles, and DoT5 in the clutch MC's where they are separate.

I've been wondering about pads/rotors for a bit now as well. I have never in my life owned a car that coats the wheels as much as this mazdaspeed does. Dust will be a HUGE consideration for pad choice when the time comes for these. 

I use EBC Yellowstuff pads for an autocross & track day car with some street use. They make plenty of dust and you should expect increased rotor wear, but they're quiet after the first stop, and they shrug off any heat I can put into them with a 2300lb car, I've never been able to get a hint of brake fade.

For fluid, just get whatever has the highest wet boiling point you can afford. That's more important than dry boiling point unless it's a race car that gets fresh fluid for every event. I use Delphi Lockheed DOT5.1 in the same car because that's what I can get locally, and it's pretty cheap.

Brake pads are a funny thing. Pads that work great for someone don't necessarily work for the next guy. Sometimes they'll work fine on certain tracks and not on others. Pads that lasted a whole weekend under normal HPDE where traffic slowed things down melted to goo under time trial type driving where you were doing proper hot laps. 

I've personally had good luck and great service from Carbotech. They're not cheap, but something like the XP10 is a proper track pad that can be driven on the street if you're willing to accept the dust/noise/rotor life that you get with it. 

I'll throw in another vote for the Carbotech pads.  I've got a set of AX6s on my Jeep (only slightly bigger rotors and significantly heavier).  They dust like hell and occasionally make some noise under very light braking (but nothing bad).  They stop great though.  They're perfectly driveable with reasonable pedal effort at 0*, so cold isn't an issue.  Bite does increase as they warm up, but there's still plenty of power on tap when stone cold (and they get stronger within a second if you get on them hard).  I had a little trouble getting enough heat in them for the recommended light fade during bed in let alone actually fading them in use.  I fully understand why they say not to bed them in on the street...

The only time they get sketchy is when it's under 50* or so and they get too wet.  Especially after sitting in rain / wind for a couple hours.  The first press of the pedal does almost nothing even if you're really leaning on it.  After a couple seconds they dry up and work perfectly fine again.  I might pick up some slotted rotors to try and see if that helps the wet bite.  

Rotor wear doesn't seem too bad so far and neither does pad life.  I don't think they'll last as well as the Hawk Superduty (similar to HP+) / HPS combo I ran before.  Those lasted until I got tired of them and still were only just over half-worn though (about 50k miles).  The superduty pads up front ate rotors though.  If I'd run the pads to end of life, I would have burned 3 sets of front rotors down to min thickness with 1 set of pads.  The carbotechs are definitely doing better than that in terms of rotor wear.  

mazdeuce - Seth said:

Brake pads are a funny thing. Pads that work great for someone don't necessarily work for the next guy. Sometimes they'll work fine on certain tracks and not on others. Pads that lasted a whole weekend under normal HPDE where traffic slowed things down melted to goo under time trial type driving where you were doing proper hot laps. 

I've personally had good luck and great service from Carbotech. They're not cheap, but something like the XP10 is a proper track pad that can be driven on the street if you're willing to accept the dust/noise/rotor life that you get with it. 

Agree.  I'm a huge fan of Carbotech based on the consistent product and excellent support I've gotten from them for over a decade.  They even delivered some pads to the track to support our Lemons race once when we failed to plan adequately.

If you have a car that is well-supported in the aftermarket there is an embarrassment of riches when it comes to brake pads. But you can call CT, talk to someone knowledgeable, and they'll put you in the right pad compound.  If they don't stock it for your car, they can make it.

The only thing I found with the HP + pads on the street.  They like heat so the first stop takes a little longer.

Dust and rotor wear where never a problem.

Ebc redstuff here. I’ve been hard on the pedal and never baked them. 

Carbotech. Can be driven on the street but they are dusty and noisy. But relatively easy on rotors compared to other options. 

Bonus is the dust is non-corrosive unlike many other options.

docwyte said:

How fast are you?  I've found there aren't really track/street pads.  There are track pads which stop you on the track, but squeel, make a ton of dust and eat your rotors on the street, or there are street pads that melt within a few laps on the track.

I'd just swap between the two compounds honestly...

How fast? How about not! 

I understand your comment about track/street pads, so I'm really thinking more of something  that's okay for street and autocross. I'm expecting to have to change pads for track use. 

I didn't think to mention driving conditions. I'm in FL, but can see temperatures in the mid twenties, and still need to be able to stop safely. As far as wet conditions, we get torrential rains during the summer, and they're not just confined to hurricanes. I've seen a summer rainstorm drop 5 inches in about a half hour. 

Another vote for hawk hp+ and ebc yellows. Plenty of dust, noise is decent. Ok grab in the cold, and great when warmed up. Anything more racy may lack when you need to make an early morning panic stop imho.

Be sure to clean/turn/replace your old rotors when changing compounds, and BED YOUR BRAKES. Ceramics seem not to need it, but more aggressive compounds do. Street/race pads are notorious for "warping" rotors. What is actually occurring is uneven pad deposits on the rotor surface. Bedding creates an even layer. Re-bed when they get unevenly grabby, or after extended street driving where brake temps don't get high for a few months. 

Long-term update, I went with plan b. Miata wheels, mounted on a Miata. And then another Miata. 

I've done about 25 autocross events, and driven the Lancer in two of them when I had mechanical problems with one of the Miatas.

That meant that I really didn't need to worry about what to do with the Lancer's brakes until now.

Most of the Performance brake options aren't available for this car. I did find out that tirerack carried stoptech sport pads for the front, and they went on today, along with a set of Firehawk 500s. Huge improvement. 

In reply to Floating Doc :

just a heads up and a general FYI for everyone. Carbotech and G-Loc will make pads for just about anything, it will just cost more. Mazdeuce even got Carbotech to make a custom set of track compound Brake shoes for the Traccord last year. 

glad you found stoptech stuff for cheap though! 

Glad it's working for you. 

We run Raybestos ST43 on our LeMons cars and they're fabulous.  Last a long time, great braking power. 

spacecadet said:

In reply to Floating Doc :

just a heads up and a general FYI for everyone. Carbotech and G-Loc will make pads for just about anything, it will just cost more. Mazdeuce even got Carbotech to make a custom set of track compound Brake shoes for the Traccord last year. 

glad you found stoptech stuff for cheap though! 

I called Carbotech, their customer service was excellent. The price for the custom pads was a lot, $270/377 if I recall correctly. The rears were a lot more since the backing plates have to be made.

Good option if I needed it.

+1 for Carbotech/GLOC. PFC also has epic track pads, but I don't think that will be what you want (noisy noisy). 

Also here's an interesting one, I always say there's no true street & track pad, but I'll say the Stoptech Sports and Fed. DS2500 are damn near the closest thing out there that can do both. Since braking is so little in autocross, this could be a good option. Especially since you aren't on 200TW's or track tires. If you are new to track work, that combo will probably work for a few years until you get fast or up the tires.  

Another vote for Carbotech/G-loc.

I am running Gloc R10 on the front of my turbo Escort.  They are a little noisy and I try to do a near-threshold brake whenever I can on the street (highway off-ramps usually) in an attempt to keep them bedded in. 

That being said they handled 20 minute sessions with a fair bit more braking than your average slow car, and didn’t fade one bit.  130+ to 40 in the T1 braking zone at Thompson Speedway…. spec miatas are braking from only ~105mph. 

They also do just fine at autocross, after one brake application they seem to come up to a temp where they are effective.

I recently went to Ferodo and I love them.

Longer term update. The Stoptech sport pads on the front of the Lancer are used up, and it's time for new brakes all the way around.

I have a 99 Miata Sport for autocross, but drove the Lancer the last few events. Our central Florida SCCA chapter did a combination event this weekend, which was an autocross  in the AM, and a "Track Sprint" in the afternoon. The track sprint is a single lap, standing start, with a flying finish around the full course at the FIRM. My miata has no roll bar, so it's not eligible for the track work. I'd like to participate in one of these, so it's going to be the lancer.

I liked the modulation that came with the Stoptech sport pads, and the car stopped well for street use, but they're not available for the rear, and I'd like to get the same pads on all four corners.

Choices are limited for this car. EBC has absolutely nothing. I'm not going to have custom pads made, it's got to be OTS due to the cost. Tire Rack carries Hawk HPS street pads (available for both axles, and in stock), so I'm going to try them with some good fluid.  If I do autocross or track the car, they're going to get a lot more of a workout than when I started this thread in 2018. I've driven in about 80 autocross events since then.

Any comments or experience to relay with the Hawk HPS pads?

Original HPS, or HPS 5.0? My experience with the originals is that they're awful. They didn't really fade on track, but they also barely had any stopping power to lose to begin with. The 5.0s were better - they actually work decently but fade pretty quickly. That said, I had/have them on a fiesta st, which has probably the most comically insufficient braking system of any modern "performance" car so not the fairest test possible. But still, they're street pads, don't expect too much from them. Probably fine for a single track sprint but doing more than a couple of hot laps at a time is going to get risky.

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Forgive me if this was brought up in the original post but Potterfield does custom pads fairly reasonable.

In reply to dps214 :

Appears to be the original HPS pads. Thanks for the reply, personal experience is exactly what I was hoping for.