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parttimeaddict
parttimeaddict New Reader
1/9/24 10:22 p.m.

Hi, I am looking to buy a new car to progress from autocross and entry level track days to advanced sessions and hopefully gridlife. 

I am currently looking at newish manual rwd cars. My current top 3 choices are 3.0 supra, m240i, and nd2/3 miata. Would these be good cars for under the $60k range. What car would you pick? Any others to look at?

I have spent a lot of sim time during the past 3 years and I am ready for a real car.

Is there a single car that I can use through all stages of time attack with simple mods?

brandonsmash
brandonsmash GRM+ Memberand Reader
1/9/24 10:38 p.m.

"time attack"

"simple mods"

...define "simple."

 

parttimeaddict
parttimeaddict New Reader
1/9/24 11:29 p.m.

In reply to brandonsmash :

Good point. For now my understanding is time attack can have multiple cars on the track but racing for time not position. Autocross, group track days, and gridlife street/street gt are on my radar. I want to focus on driving the car not working on it. Excited to learn about suspension adjustments, tire setups, and alignments.

I want to get a car that has mostly good guts and might just need an upgrade or two as I progress. Brake pads, downpipe and tune, injectors, sway bars, coilovers, arms. 

Not really wanting to open the motor, add a turbo, or change the diff. 

AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter)
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) PowerDork
1/9/24 11:33 p.m.

I'd go with an ND Miata.  Why?  It's cheaper to own, upgrade, and replace engines, transmissions and differentials.  If you are going racing, you'll need that money for wear and tear.  And if you do decide to mod the heck out of it, all the hard work is already done because the aftermarket support is huge.  I'd track a turbo ND before I'd run an OEM turbo BMW.  That's me though; you have to decide for yourself,  

Tom1200
Tom1200 PowerDork
1/9/24 11:37 p.m.

+1 on the ND Miata for all the reasons AnthonyGS listed.

parttimeaddict
parttimeaddict New Reader
1/9/24 11:43 p.m.

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

Wow. I knew turbo miatas were popular, but I had no idea they were that good something I'll look into for sure.

Are OEM Bmw turbos really bad?

Caprigrip
Caprigrip Reader
1/10/24 12:25 a.m.

Miata x3.   Consumables.   Aftermarket support.   To be able to concentrate on driving instead of wrenching is huge. 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/10/24 2:52 a.m.

The Miata's a good choice for the reasons already mentioned. But you mentioned some very different cars as options and the Miata has some downsides the others don't - it has relatively weak straight-line performance out of the box and not as much mod potential as a Supra or M240i. You would have the mod the ND beyond recognition to keep up with one of those two on a track, but modding one of those BMW drivetrains, while certain to make you best friends with your local BMW specialist speed shop, will add oodles of power the ND couldn't dream of without a wild engine swap that could cost even more. The ND has great handling stock and a huge weight advantage, but also consider how much tire width those cars can fit without major suspension & body mods. That can become a limitation to handling on heavily modded time attack cars with a lot of downforce.

So the Miata is brilliant autocrosser and a great starter track car, dirt cheap to run and easy to drive. The only thing it might not be great for is time attack, where its performance could relatively quickly run into a wall of diminishing returns, so if you're hoping to be seriously competitive at time attack, especially in less restrictive classes, that could be a point against the Miata.

One other car you might want to consider is a Toyobaru (FRS/BRZ/86 etc). I cross-shopped these with an ND Miata and went with the Toyobaru for its greater practicality as a street car (4 seats, and you can even use them all at once if the driver isn't tall!) and far greater cargo capacity (for hauling equipment to & from the track, especially important if you're going long-distance and also packing suitcases). These are somewhat close to an ND in straight-line performance when stock, a Toyobaru is slower up to about 130~140kmh and faster above, although with basic engine mods you can close the acceleration gap at lower speeds. Cornering is a little behind the ND stock vs. stock but again the gap can be closed with fairly basic mods - I'd say they have a little more modding potential than the ND overall. Aftermarket support is just as huge as for the ND. Downsides though are more weight, slightly higher running costs, and the infamously fragile engines that require about $1k in mods to stay alive on track...and for the unlucky, at least one engine has even blown up on the street with all the necessary mods in place.

Sonic
Sonic UberDork
1/10/24 8:00 a.m.

Another ND vote.  You will learn much more in a slower car with less traction, and be safer doing it.  An ND has so much upgrade possibility but I strongly suggest starting out with stock size tires and only a spring/shock upgrade.   Agree with all the other points made as well. 

camopaint0707
camopaint0707 Reader
1/10/24 8:11 a.m.

Miata and seat time

bmw88rider
bmw88rider GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/10/24 8:37 a.m.

I'd look at a few things. 

1. How experienced are you? 

2. What class are you looking to run in? You mention Gridlife. What's been winning there? 

3. Can you afford to leave a $60K car at the track as a write off if stuff goes wrong?  

3a. Are you willing and able to properly test components? Or do you have someone that can help you? 

4. Can you fit below a roll bar in a miata? 

Reason I ask all of these are be exact on what you are looking at. Personally, I think the best lower end track car is a Civic Type R but it gets poo pooed. 

 

 

ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter)
ShinnyGroove (Forum Supporter) Dork
1/10/24 9:08 a.m.

Budget is the most important criteria- how much do you want to spend?

At first glance, the SCCA Club Spec cars would be perfect for this application.

Rodan
Rodan UltraDork
1/10/24 9:23 a.m.

Another vote for the ND Miata.  For a new car that you can drive to the track and run, there's probably not a better choice for a new track driver.  It won't be the fastest, but it's very capable, reliable and the cost of consumables will be lower than any of the faster choices.  An alignment and a set of good tires will get you impressive lap times for a stock car.

For TT/Time Attack, classes are often power/weight, so you should be competing against similar cars.  I'm not sure how the ND falls out with Gridlife classing, so if that's your goal, you'll need to look at the rules, but for everything else, it would be a great pick.

I do like the Toybaru twins, but the engine issues in recent years would keep me away. 

LukeGT
LukeGT GRM+ Memberand New Reader
1/10/24 9:36 a.m.

Miata is the answer. BUT, if you really want stronger acceleration/speed with still excellent reliability, easy to work on, strong aftermarket support, hard to go wrong with a Coyote Mustang. My 2013 GT has 97k miles on it with around 15 track days mixed in with drag racing and lots of hard back roads driving, engine has never had a singe issue or been opened up in any way. Just an option! 

Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Publisher
1/10/24 10:04 a.m.

This sounds like a perfect case for SCCA Club Spec.

parttimeaddict
parttimeaddict New Reader
1/10/24 10:13 a.m.

In reply to Rodan :

I had a new gr86 and got rid of it when the market was hot. Great feeling car. Couldn't shake the idea of a total motor failure. They always have a fatal flaw.

parttimeaddict
parttimeaddict New Reader
1/10/24 10:25 a.m.

In reply to bmw88rider :

I am decently experienced on sim and irl back roads of older cars with no assists. I am not trying to be that guy and I may end up with a type r. Fwd just feels so unnatural to me when pushing a car hard. Its 100% just bias and bad habits that can be fixed. 

There are plenty of classes. And I'm not only looking at gridlife. Many cars work for gridlife. I'd love to win or be competitive but I'm new and I dont expect to be the best off a sim day 1.
 

Money is always a thing. I will take some precautions such as track insurance and not beating on the motor or overdriving. 
 

Not sure why I would need to test components but I could figure it out I guess. I could go to mexico and test a turbo or something.

Haven't looked that far into it. Probably. I'm 5'11. I would probably lower the seat and be fine. 

 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
1/10/24 10:32 a.m.

Miata

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/10/24 10:41 a.m.

I would decide what class you want to compete in, see what the best options are for that class, then make a decision. 

Then, check with track insurance to see what it will cost. I don't operate at the level where I can imagine taking a $60k car on track and driving it in anger chasing lap times. 

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/10/24 10:44 a.m.

Rereading your first couple of posts, it sounds like you've never actually driven a car on track.........just sim stuff. 

Go buy a cheap NA/NB and get some actual seat time in real life. 

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
1/10/24 11:26 a.m.

Love my FRS. Will never get over the feeling that the engine was designed by the Boeing window plug guy.

parttimeaddict
parttimeaddict New Reader
1/10/24 11:41 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

No thanks.

parttimeaddict
parttimeaddict New Reader
1/10/24 11:45 a.m.

In reply to z31maniac :

I don't do much angry driving. I laid out the path of competition I want to take. I'll have track insurance on pretty much anything. Its not that bad

roninsoldier83
roninsoldier83 GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
1/10/24 11:58 a.m.

My advice: you should figure out what you really want to do first. 

Do you just want to enjoy the occasional open lapping day with friends? If so, pick whatever you like! Drive everything that interests you and buy whatever tickles your fancy. 

Do you actually want to compete and be competitive? If so, figure out what class you would like to eventually run in and pick a competitive car. For time attack, the most popular series are Gridlife, NASA TT and SCCA TT is also starting to pick up. They all have their pros and cons. Some of Gridlife's more popular series are things like Club TR, which pretty much means to be competitive, you're probably going to need something with a K24 swap... NASA's classes are pretty much all power-to-weight ratio based- leaving you with plenty of options on what to drive, but you need to find the appropriate PWR you're looking for and read the rules to build the right car... SCCA's TT classes are 100% centered around "the car to have", which is usually the most popular car in their respective classes. SCCA builds can be cheaper in lower classes (more restrictive rulesets), but you truly need to have the right car, which sometimes changes ever year or 2. Pick your poison. 

I'm not sure where you're located, but if you want to compete locally, you should looks into local leagues. No point in building a car for XYZ class, only to discover that no one locally competes in that class... I've been in a class of 1 before, trust me, it's no fun. 

You should probably understand how much it truly costs to build a competitive time attack car... the last time I decided I was going to attempt to build a competitive time attack car, I was building it to run NASA TT6, which is the cheapest, lowest powered class that NASA has. I was building a car that was probably worth ~$10,000. By the time the basic bones of the car was built, I had invested an additional $20,000 worth of parts into the car... for a car making ~160whp... that's with me doing all of my own wrenching. No aero, nothing crazy. That's for a cheap car, in a "cheap" class. I don't mean to be insulting, but have you looked into how much it would cost to build a competitive time attack B58 powered Supra or 240i? Buying a car is only the tip of the iceburg as far as expenses are concerned. 

The cheapest way to get into motorsports (by far) is autocross. However, your seat time is very limited. It's a great way to build technical skill and to meet friendly folks that will likely help you to get faster, but it can be a bit of a tough sell- get up early, drive far away, work the track for hours standing in the sun for 3-6 runs that are only 40-60 seconds long. Unless you love it, it can be draining. With that said, what's great about autocross is that most of the popular Street SCCA classes have restrictive rulesets, so not much money is spent on mods to be competitive. And by comparison, it's not very hard on your car. For time attack, there's quite a bit to consider: 

-Keeping coolant and oil temps down for 20+ minute long lapping sessions. This frequently means bigger radiator, some type of oil cooler, sometimes ducting, vented hoods, etc. 
-In time attack, depending on your platform, you can eat through tires and brakes pretty quickly. This can add up to your season costs to run. To save on consumables, entering a lower power class and keeping the weight down can save you quite a bit of money. 
-Safety. How fast is your car on track? In the event of a roll over or high speed collision, will your street car save your life? Cages aren't exactly cheap and they don't exactly help with resale value... 
-Running a car hard for a long period of time sometimes results in blowing a drivetrain component... the same can be said for the dreaded "money shift" on a manual car... can you afford to replace a blown motor on track? For an older Miata, that might be a $500-$4000 affair (plus labor if you can't swap it yourself). For something more exotic or harder to come by, you could be looking at a much larger bill. 
-Can you afford to walk away from a $60k car that you put into a wall at turn 4 when you misjudged your entry speed? Keep in mind that most of the time, your street car insurance will not cover you for timed events... you can purchase track day insurance, but it's not cheap and will add up if you plan on running for an entire season. 
-What does your tool set look like? How mechanically inclined are you? Things break on track. Frequently. Paying someone else isn't cheap... but neither are tools. I would imagine many of the folks on this forums have invested tens of thousands of dollars in tools over the years (I know I have- and I'm a novice compared to some of these nuts!). 

^^^Many of those considerations go away with autocross, or are at least drastically diminished as autocross isn't nearly as hard on your car as time attack- much shorter runs (~60 seconds vs 20+ minutes) with much lower speeds (typically no faster than ~60mph) and far less of a chance of a money shift (in most cars, depending on gearing, you shift into 2nd towards the beginning of the run and just remain in 2nd). 

So, again, do some research, get out there and figure out what sounds most appealing to you. If you want to compete, find the most competitive cars in the class (classes?) you're most interested in and buy that. For competition, there's no real blanket answer, as it's more class dependant than anything. 

If you just want to do open lapping days with friends, while learning the basics of car control in the real world, heed the advice of everyone on this forum: Miata Is Always The Answer. Although I would go against the grain here and instead of recommending an NA/NB or ND, I would pick up an NC. These days, NC's are similar in price to the NA/NB, but with more chassis stiffness, more interior space for taller drivers, quite a bit more acceleration, they're much newer than the NA/NB (read: less maintenance and leaks), don't have the weaker tranny of the ND, 2.5L swaps are cheap and if you ever wanted to up your power game with NA power, the fine folks at KPower are FINALLY releasing a K-swap kit for the NC: https://kpower.industries/

^^^I have to stop typing to avoid buying another NC and lusting after a K24 swap for it. 

johndej
johndej SuperDork
1/10/24 11:59 a.m.

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/how-tackle-your-first-track-day/

I would say whatever you are driving in autocross right now, sign up for a track day in that. Go there and as z31maniac mentioned, actually partake in your first track day. You don't need to decide what gridlife event you're doing before actually going to the track. Getting that box checked and getting some seat time at speed will help show you where to go better than anything on this forum...but miata is the answer.

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