Affordable/Dependable/Fun GT and Autocross car?

Suitability as a highway GT car is mostly in the eye (ear & butt) of the beholder... what some folks are happy with would drive others nuts. 

We had a PRHT NC Miata for several years.  Wife's DD, and took it on a number of road trips and to trackdays.  With aftermarket suspension and larger/stickier tires, it's doable, but noisy on the highway.  Fantastic backroad fun, though not great on power.  A bit on the cramped side for touring.

The NC replaced a C6, that was absolutely the worst POS car I ever owned.  I think we got a lemon, but it was not an enjoyable ownership experience.  There were a lot of design and component quality issues that were pretty irritating.  As a GT car, it was pretty good, if a little on the loud side. 

Prior to the C6, we test drove the Twins and 370Zs.  Neither really did it for us, for a lot of the reasons mentioned already.  The seats in the 370Z were VERY uncomfortable, but again that's an individual thing.  The 370Z Roadster has enough trunk space for 3-4 computer keyboards, as long as you stack them carefully.

We also drove a Genesis Coupe... Hyundai is getting there, but it was a little heavier/slower/softer than we wanted.  Kind of like a V6 Mustang.

And that brings me to Mustangs.  Go drive a '15 up Mustang GT with the Performance Pack.  Used examples should be dropping into your price range.  We just traded our NC for a '17 Mustang GT, and I've been very impressed with the total package so far.   The interior is still a little on the cheap side, but the driving experience is really good.  Just make sure you drive a Performance Pack... it has stiffer suspension, Brembos, different vehicle stability tuning, and steeper axle ratio.

And a word on depreciated German finery... you might get lucky, you might not.  There's some great values, but you could spend a lot of money keeping them on the road... 

NOHOME said:

Six years into the FRS ownership and more than one 1000 mile day in the saddle ( Sturgis to London Ontario non-stop) I call bullE36 M3 on the not suitable for Hwy use. In MY opinion it is exactly what I want for a long drive. Last thing I need is a mobile couch that puts me to sleep. The FRS is an engaging chassis to drive at any speed,and any road conditions; that is what makes it a good GT.

Is it the fastest car on the road? NO, but it is more than fast enough to get you arrested in any of the divided states of 'murica. If it has a problem passing, I have not run into it. When you hit the twisties, it is a pleasure to be in.

 

If the real need is for a Touring car, then you need to move into the vehicle weight category over 3500 lbs. You need mass for your ass if you wannabe comfy.

 

Pete

And I thought the basic requirement for the Molvo is to be a good touring GT?  The Volvo 1800ES is definitely a great long-distance touring car, but it is still a 50 year-old design.  Awesome compared to contemporaries, but very much lacking compared to most modern cars, although we did prefer it for long trips vs. the ex's R53 MINI.  More interior room and much better ride quality.  As long as the drive didn't require power, handling or amenities... 

Hi Guys,

Great info...thanks again!  I really appreciate it.  

RyanGreener...what you say about the Mini JCW is just what my pal says....I will take an extended drive.

STM317...I agree a GT would be more RWD than FWD...but I think that's harder to find in my price range.  Also...I tend to like lighter better handling cars more than Fast lazy cars (hence hard to find that balance).  More on this below.  I did once get to test drive a Ferarri California...and it definitely checked all the boxes I am looking for...well...except for the cost...and maintenance/reliability...

NOHOME...thanks for the info on the FRS/BRZ.  I will take one for an extended drive and see what it feels like to me.  

You guys and all the above posts are helping me determine my priorities.  So....In order from most important to least (but still important):

1)  Great handling car (for autocross and short backroad drives)

2) Something I "like."  Yes...very subjective...but something I would be proud of and excited to drive.

3)  Something dependable

4) Something that can also do double duty for long highway drives with some backroads thrown in.  This is the GT part of the equation.  I would like this to do well...as I don't want to avoid those fun long trips with my better half...just because the car is noisy/buzzy/etc like my old Civic Si.

Based on my initial thoughts and all your comments...I "think" here's my current list...but would love to hear more thoughts about these or others...

In no particular order"

135 (I worry about dependability a little, great GT, fun enough autocross/backroads)

Mini JCW (Might be perfect for everything....will need to look into reliability or warranty)

GTI (I wonder if I will really "like" it...subjectively)

2017+ Civic Si (with Hondata tune and suspension...might be perfect?)

Focus ST (might be perfect...also easy to update suspension if wanted)

2011+ WRX (might be perfect)

Miata PRHT 13-15 Club model (I know is perfect for a lot of my goals...wonder about cruising and fit)

FRS/BRZ (need to take on an EXTENDED test drive)

Cayman/Boxster (I worry about dependability a little)

2015+ Mustang GT (really need to drive this generation...have only drive older ones...does this one fit the handling goal?)

ATS - Good suggestion...should try

Thanks again and keep it coming if you have thoughts.

Colebob

Don’t forget the Buick version of the ATS.

Available with AWD, turbo and manual.

The Elantra GT is a great option. 

Affordable, reliable, decent engine, decent chassis, practical and not too shabby on a long haul. 

Another option might be the Cruze Hatch

OK, down on power and torque, but economical, good MPG, 6-speed and you can get a brake upgrade, wheel upgrade, and performance exhaust from the factory, making it a decent autocross performer. Add some suspension upgrades and you have something unique, practical and really solid on long drives.  

I'd suggest driving as many cars as you can.  I took a new V6 mustang w/6 speed home for an overnight test drive last year and couldn't wait to give it back...the seat killed my lower back.  Plenty fast though. 

Focus ST was a bit loud, and didn't feel terribly grounded on the highway.  It's probably a lot better with the sound amplifier delete.

I loved the RX8s I've driven on the auto-x, great balance.  I imagine they'd spin super quiet at highway speeds.  Terrible fuel economy and spotty reliability though.

86 twins are pretty noisy for GT duty.  I also noticed the road noise more than anything else.  Great balance though.  I suppose dynamat could help some

VW MKIV and MKV R32 cars may fit the bill, maybe a little front-heavy for auto-x.  Even a tuned AWD sportwagen might be fun.

Audi TT pr Boxter?  Newer ones are out of you price range 

G35 Coupe is a great highway cruiser.

Genesis coupe: I was disappointed by the early turbo-4 Genesis coupes.  Noisy, unrefined, not even really sporty.  The one I test drove did seem a little worn.  They also seemed overpriced on the used market last time I looked.

I'll also second the 128i/135i.  The 128i is probably more reliable than the turbo.  The potential repair expense is a risk.

Thanks Hoondavan.

The fuel economy of the RX-8 doesn't bother me at all.  Somehow the reliability doesn't bother me much either...unlike the bigger worries I have about German cars.  I'll add the RX-8 to the extended drive list.

Colebob said:

Thanks Hoondavan.

 

The fuel economy of the RX-8 doesn't bother me at all.  Somehow the reliability doesn't bother me much either...unlike the bigger worries I have about German cars.  I'll add the RX-8 to the extended drive list.

If those things don't bother you about the RX-8, then it might be your huckleberry. I love them, but can't justify owning one right now. 

Good use of Huckleberry!  Thanks Clutchsmoke.

Stefan said:

Don’t forget the Buick version of the ATS.

Available with AWD, turbo and manual.

Is this a thing? I'm not super familiar with Buick's line up, but the only thing that I can think of that comes close is the Regal, but it's a FWD platform, not the RWD "Alpha" platform like the ATS/Camaro. Enlighten me?

The VW MkIV R32 is a really nice car - VW set a standard for interiors with that model that even they have had a hard time matching in subsequent models in an "economy" car. It's just a really nice place to spend time (one of my other cars is a 2003 Jetta TDI wagon).  The R32 stepped it up with even nicer seats. Even 15 years after I bought it, my leather equipped Jetta is the standard other cars I ride in has to match and very few do. Not even my MCS. 

As mainly a "GT" car, I think a R32 would do well.  Might not be too bad as a track car, but as an autocross car it seems to be heavy, although it did win a couple of jackets (in D-Stock back in the r-comp era, IIRC) a decade or so ago.

Which is the one that makes the insanely awesome noises was it the R32 or the R36?

Not sure... the current "R" sounds pretty good. The MkIV's VR6 has a pretty good note from the factory dual pipes.  IIRC, the MkV R32(36?) was only sold with a DCT and was only marginally popular. Plus, some would say the V was a step backwards from the IV in interior fit and finish. I remember being rather underwhelmed with it when the car was first introduced.

In reply to Stefan :

Buick GS, unfortunately is/was only available in FWD with the Manual.  I was considering it, until I started researching reliability on TrueDelta.  Owners were reporting lots of big $ repairs.

In reply to Colebob :

They're dirt cheap, so plenty of room in the budget for repairs or V8 swap.  Supposedly the later cars were less prone to failure. Some of the newer limited edition cars are still pretty desirable.

Mazda used to do a big event (ZoomZoom) where they'd bring a bunch of cars and set up a bunch of auto-x courses.  It was a big production, and a ton of fun.  While I've still never owned a Mazda, it made me a believer.

pinchvalve said:

The Elantra GT is a great option. 

Affordable, reliable, decent engine, decent chassis, practical and not too shabby on a long haul. 

Another option might be the Cruze Hatch

OK, down on power and torque, but economical, good MPG, 6-speed and you can get a brake upgrade, wheel upgrade, and performance exhaust from the factory, making it a decent autocross performer. Add some suspension upgrades and you have something unique, practical and really solid on long drives.  

I know you're sort of being silly here, but I like the looks of both of your picks over nearly anything else mentioned here.

Great list Colebob, be sure to post you experiences with these different cars on extended test drives!

Also, this just popped up on the interwebs yesterday: 360WHP 2017 Civic Si

I too am a bit of a Honda/Acura fanboi and it's great to see they are already doing so much with the new Si.

When I drove the RX-8, I came away realizing that the car is even more weird than I once thought. I think the ride/handling balance of the RX-8 is actually pretty awesome, and really, for a sports car, it falls on the more comfortable side of things. And if you can live with the M1 Abrams fuel economy even on road trips, I think you'd like it a lot. Blatant Mazda fanboyism aside, I thought they offered the best chassis and steering short of a Cayman. Try it out, you'll like it.

In reply to Colebob : your goals are directly opposite each other, GT is short for grand touring.  There a longer wheelbase, wider track car  with a high power to weight ratio is considered optimum. It allows relatively compliant suspension to comfortably deal with surface irregularities. 

Autocross on the other hand rewards short narrow cars with relatively stiff suspensions.   

Handling has a real definition but to so many people it means nimble and quick which is not what handling actually is. 

2011-2014 Mustang GT can be had for under $20k and checks all these boxes. 

I owned one of these and only traded it in because it was too large a car for me. However I don't think you would have that problem it seems you are actually looking for a car like this. I like sport compacts more. 

If you check the forums for the E82, the N55 135i cars (2011-2013), have FAR less reliability problems than the N54 (2008-2010) cars. 

The big things are to keep an eye out for the belt tensioner, if it fails, the belt can wrap around the crank pulley and get pulled in past the seal and end up with trash in the rod and/or main bearings. This is sped up if your Oil Filter Housing Gasket is leaking.

Electric water pumps are pricey but should be good to 60k before a preventative replacement. 

The N55 doesn't have near the carbon build-up issues the earlier cars did either. 

Here is a good thread to begin with:

https://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1285231

Thanks all.

I will definitely share my thoughts re extended test drives.  Might not be technically the best...but I will share "my" thoughts on how they are re my goals.  Thanks too for the video link to the Si (looks fun...but that one is REALLY modified)...   RX-8 is creeping up my list as well thanks to all your input.

Colebob

Colebob said:

Hi Guys,

Great info...thanks again!  I really appreciate it.  

RyanGreener...what you say about the Mini JCW is just what my pal says....I will take an extended drive.

STM317...I agree a GT would be more RWD than FWD...but I think that's harder to find in my price range.  Also...I tend to like lighter better handling cars more than Fast lazy cars (hence hard to find that balance).  More on this below.  I did once get to test drive a Ferarri California...and it definitely checked all the boxes I am looking for...well...except for the cost...and maintenance/reliability...

NOHOME...thanks for the info on the FRS/BRZ.  I will take one for an extended drive and see what it feels like to me.  

 

You guys and all the above posts are helping me determine my priorities.  So....In order from most important to least (but still important):

1)  Great handling car (for autocross and short backroad drives)

2) Something I "like."  Yes...very subjective...but something I would be proud of and excited to drive.

3)  Something dependable

4) Something that can also do double duty for long highway drives with some backroads thrown in.  This is the GT part of the equation.  I would like this to do well...as I don't want to avoid those fun long trips with my better half...just because the car is noisy/buzzy/etc like my old Civic Si.

Based on my initial thoughts and all your comments...I "think" here's my current list...but would love to hear more thoughts about these or others...

In no particular order"

135 (I worry about dependability a little, great GT, fun enough autocross/backroads)

Mini JCW (Might be perfect for everything....will need to look into reliability or warranty)

GTI (I wonder if I will really "like" it...subjectively)

2017+ Civic Si (with Hondata tune and suspension...might be perfect?)

Focus ST (might be perfect...also easy to update suspension if wanted)

2011+ WRX (might be perfect)

Miata PRHT 13-15 Club model (I know is perfect for a lot of my goals...wonder about cruising and fit)

FRS/BRZ (need to take on an EXTENDED test drive)

Cayman/Boxster (I worry about dependability a little)

2015+ Mustang GT (really need to drive this generation...have only drive older ones...does this one fit the handling goal?)

ATS - Good suggestion...should try

 

Thanks again and keep it coming if you have thoughts.

Colebob

Colebob, I did a lot of research on the F56 Minis before I bought one (yes, bought, not leased!). As of 2017, the car had been out in the UK for 5 years and in the US for 4 years (obviously in 2018 you would add an extra year) and had absolutely no tragic issues that effected the cars. That's a long time for R&D and people to test the car out. I even know someone in real life who has a base Mini Cooper that takes it to all of his track days (as well as a daily driver) and it still runs completely fine. I also know yet ANOTHER person who is a photographer and daily drives his base Mini Cooper and has over 60k miles with absolutely no issues. Maybe it won't be a Toyota and be problem free for 200k, but the preliminary "testing" looks good. I've only got about 6000 miles on mine, but for what it's worth, no issues here either.

tuna55 said:

pinchvalve said:

The Elantra GT is a great option. 

Affordable, reliable, decent engine, decent chassis, practical and not too shabby on a long haul. 

Another option might be the Cruze Hatch

OK, down on power and torque, but economical, good MPG, 6-speed and you can get a brake upgrade, wheel upgrade, and performance exhaust from the factory, making it a decent autocross performer. Add some suspension upgrades and you have something unique, practical and really solid on long drives.  

I know you're sort of being silly here, but I like the looks of both of your picks over nearly anything else mentioned here.

I bought a brand new 2017 Elantra Sport (sedan) a bit over a year ago.  It is a wonderful car--the kind that you always do a double-take when you park and walk away from it.  It's quick, rides nicely, sounds great has very nice ergos--seat, steeringwheel, switchgear, infotainment etc.  It was under $18K after incentives.  I would buy  one again in a heartbeat.

I added some CL Veloster wheels that were nasty--but very cheap, and painted them gray.  Also added Rally Armor flaps and a bigger RSB.  Otherwise bone stock.  I don't think it will beat a well-driven FiST in HS, but it won't be a tail-end car either.  

I saw both the Focus ST and MazdaSpeed 3 mentioned, so why not add the third member of the triumvirate - the Volvo C30.  Depending on how you weight your criteria, this might fit the bill.  It's got a little less power in stock form than it's brethren, but carries the largest engine with the greatest cylinder count (5) for a less high-strung feel.  It's also tuned more for GT-style comfort with softer springs and additional sound deadening.  Brakes are pretty awesome as-delivered.

Want more power?  There are parts & tunes.  Suspension too soft?  A lot of the suspension bits are interchangeable between the three platforms.