Air Cooled Porsches --> Never meet your heroes?

So growing up, I always liked these (964/993) Porsches and it wasn't because they were air cooled (didn't know any better as a kid), but because they were just cool cars to me. I've been thinking lately of how I want to have one of these and I have been looking at 993's but I'm wondering if its just one of those cars that won't live up to the fantasy. I've never driven an air cooled Porsche and there  aren't really many to test drive around here because I don't know anyone who personally has one. I've driven a lot of cars old and new and I'm comfortable in pretty much anything so I'm mostly asking anyone here who has knowledge about both the driving and ownership experience (maintenance, etc). I have done basic google but nothing seems to give me a real view of how it is. I've been thinking of unloading my Miatas to buy a decent 993 and the market doesn't seem super insane yet for Carreras.

I mean, a 993 is the last of the breed, the base Carrera is a 3000lb/270hp car that could do 170mph back in the mid 90's...coming from a Miata it will certainly knock your socks off.

If we were talking about an old air-cooled SC or something there would be a reasonable possibility of disappointment, but they were pretty quick and refined cars by the 964 generation, and the 993s still hold their own today. That's why lots of them are six-figure cars now.

I had a 911sc.   I own a turbo Miata.   I would go on back to back drives to compare the 2.  Would autocross both.   Trying to see which I liked better.  
 

The 911 had character for days and just oozed cool.  The thin a pillars made visibility amazing.  The roar of the engine behind was magical.  And the entire car was just solid and taut.   
 

However, the shifting was archaic.   Even with an upgraded shift mechanism, I would dream about the snick snick feeling of my Miata anytime I drove my Porsche.   And living in Texas, air-cooled air conditioning would never make for a sweat free summer drive.  And the fact that it was easily 3 times more expensive than a Miata, I sold it and have no regrets.  
 

I still own the Miata and added a 996 generation 911 to my garage and that is modern enough to be one's only car that can truly do it all.  

I had a similar experience. 964 and 97 miata at the same time. The 964 was much more special, and unlike anything I've ever had...and I bought it when it was cheap. The view over the fenders, direct steering, outstanding brake and steering feel, first time dumping oil out of the fender (beware!) for an oil change, rear engine, sounds and smells were all very unique.

Once the price started climbing, my comfort level (related to my financial position at the time) had me moving it on. Great experience though.

Notably, while it was super special/weird and a great experience, my smile wasn't really any wider in the 964 compared to the much more conventional mx5.

I've only driven a (mechanically restored) 930, so grain of salt. It is a very light and tight car. Amazing how such a small car feels stable but still nimble. Felt a little slower than my e36 m3.

Ergonomically the air cooled 911's are weird.  I wouldn't consider buying one older than a 964, at that point they drive like old cars and remind me too much of a more powerful beetle.  I don't like the floor mounted pedals and the feel of the ergonomics are just strange. Also the hvac on anything older than a 964/993 just doesn't work very well.

That said, I passed on a 964C2 maybe 5 years ago and I should've bought it...

For some additional insights, David, our Editorial Director, has a G-body 911.

I'm sure he'd love to discuss the good and the bad, and you can always read more about it over on Classic Motorsports: https://classicmotorsports.com/project-cars/1984-porsche-911-carrera/

I think in general they do live up to the fantasy, as long as you understand that part of its charm is being a slightly quirky 80s car. The pedals are weird, your legs might not quite fit under the steering wheel and the shifter is....well it's there and mostly functional most of the time, but that's all part of the experience (and the shifter is somewhat fixable).

Owning one isn't too bad generally. Yeah parts tend to be expensive but the other part of the charm is that they're fairly simple cars, there just isn't that much to go wrong.

That all said, personally I would still have a really hard time justifying the purchase price for what it is. Of course the upside is that those prices aren't going anywhere so if/when you sell you'll get most of your money back. But that only works if you intend to sell it. For me it was a really cool car for a friend to own and me to get to drive every now and then, and I do miss it some, but I'm not looking to own one unless prices drop 50%.

I've had thoughts similar to the OP, but some of you guys are close to making an argument for a 275HP Miata, and I have an ND-RF now. To those of you who have owned Porsches, I'm pondering one , not for local driving, but for use as a touring car, a GT that is more comfortable than the ND. Am I wrong about that perception?

"ergonomically the air cooled 911's are weird.  I wouldn't consider buying one older than a 964, at that point they drive like old cars and remind me too much of a more powerful beetle.  I don't like the floor mounted pedals and the feel of the ergonomics is just strange."

^This. +100.

Its fun in its own way, but just too much beetle in it to be worth the price. I haven't driven a 993 and would imagine that's a very different experience.

Customer had a 911.

Floor mounted pedals feel weird.

Feels like a tarted up VW. 

A very fast, very fun, tarted up VW.

If you take a turbo out in the rain, call the towing company and let them know your route. That way they can be ready to pick you up from one of the many lamp posts that the car will start hunting.

There's a reason I have a 996.  It feels and drives like a modern car, with proper ergonomics, hvac that works, happy sitting in traffic, etc.  Even though mine is 21 years old, it doesn't feel or drive like it...

DeadSkunk (Warren) said:

I've had thoughts similar to the OP, but some of you guys are close to making an argument for a 275HP Miata, and I have an ND-RF now. To those of you who have owned Porsches, I'm pondering one , not for local driving, but for use as a touring car, a GT that is more comfortable than the ND. Am I wrong about that perception?

It depends.

I've driven a C3.2 long distances in Europe, I've driven my 997.2 across the US. I've taken the same European trips in a really early NA Miata[1] that was certainly slower but not any less comfortable and am considering a cross-country trip in my current ND.

The newer 911s do work as a GT, but there's a very noticeable sports cars waiting to come out. A Ferrari 456 or Aston Martin they ain't.

Honestly, if it wasn't for the price explosion that most 911s have encountered over the last 10-15 years, there wouldn't be a reason to have both a Miata and a 911.

[1] It was early enough that Mazda UK supposedly bought it from me via a middleman, according to said middleman. And I have no reason to doubt him.

I echo everything above.  At 10 year ago prices, I think the 993 911 was pretty great for the price.  At today's prices, I can think of about 20 performance cars I would rather have.  Those cars would definitely not be cooler, but they would be objectively better.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Nope. The nadir of Porsche aircooled cars, the 911SC, still goes 0-60 in 6.5 seconds or so, and that's if someone left it stock. Later cars are even faster. A 993 will be comparable to the last LT1/LT4 C4 Corvettes and those aren't slow. The driving experience will be very different from a numb modern car, too!  

The only exception is if you've gotten acclimated to a very fast modern car (0-60 in <4) and live somewhere flat and open. In that case I'd recommend a recent turbocharged 911 or 718. That way you continue to get the Porsche driving experience and aren't disappointed by the straight-line sped. 

You have to love it for the experience of driving a vintage 911.  Out of the box, there's not much that a 993 does that an E36 M3 won't from a performance perspective (at least in terms of lap times for stock-ish cars.)  But an air-cooled 911 has swagger for days.  There is a lot of soul and exclusivity in those cars and the prices will always reflect that.

The late 3.2 Carreras through the 993 were an anachronism when they were new. The ergonomics of the pedal box (on god forbid the 915 gearbox for the older cars) are....not good.  But, I found them to be rewarding to learn how to interface with to get the most out of the car.

Give me a 964 that's roughly as fast as a modern Camry in a straight line, because The lack of speed will actually accentuate what makes it so special. Some of the engagement is a level of quirkiness that takes some adaptation to get used to, but like fixing a golf swing, just because it feels different, doesn't mean that it isn't an improvement. 

Of non GT spec Porsches, the order of pre electrification coolness is going to be

Air cooled 911

Water-cooled Caymans 

And don't worry, the hybrids are going to be cool, you're just going to have to accept that, like Abe Simpson told Homer,

"I used to be with ‘it’, but then they changed what ‘it’ was. Now what I’m with isn’t ‘it’ anymore and what’s ‘it’ seems weird and scary. It’ll happen to you!" 

My take with 20 years and 180k miles in an NA miata, 20 years and 70k miles in 993s...

A $70k, 275hp miata will be a hoot, well equipped, and probably faster in any real-world situation than a normally-aspirated 993. It'll be cheaper to run and you won't have to find Exactly The Right Shop with copascetic elves, a treasure chest of factory tools and the skill to do a correct and effective kinematic toe setup. It has both modern underpinnings and also modern ergonomics. It will be orders of magnitude easier to learn to drive at 8+/10ths. Undoubtedly a wonderful car to own for the ages.

On the other hand, while I liked the miata a lot I never went out to the garage just to look at it. Miata has no Stuttgart Symphony Orchestra hiding behind the seats. The 993 has enough anachronism in the view from the driver's seat, the pedals and random dash control placement to be charming, but also a very modern suspension and brakes and reasonably good air conditioning. The G50 shifter isn't miatalike, but better than the earlier cars and with some fettling it's better than the water-cooled ones. Overall the 993 is like a factory restomod.

Like many things this is an emotional decision. TBH 'like' may not be enough emotion to make the 993 worthwhile - I doubt you'll be disappointed, but maybe not satisfied either.

paddygarcia said:

My take with 20 years and 180k miles in an NA miata, 20 years and 70k miles in 993s...

A $70k, 275hp miata will be a hoot, well equipped, and probably faster in any real-world situation than a normally-aspirated 993. It'll be cheaper to run and you won't have to find Exactly The Right Shop with copascetic elves, a treasure chest of factory tools and the skill to do a correct and effective kinematic toe setup. It has both modern underpinnings and also modern ergonomics. It will be orders of magnitude easier to learn to drive at 8+/10ths. Undoubtedly a wonderful car to own for the ages.

On the other hand, while I liked the miata a lot I never went out to the garage just to look at it. Miata has no Stuttgart Symphony Orchestra hiding behind the seats. The 993 has enough anachronism in the view from the driver's seat, the pedals and random dash control placement to be charming, but also a very modern suspension and brakes and reasonably good air conditioning. The G50 shifter isn't miatalike, but better than the earlier cars and with some fettling it's better than the water-cooled ones. Overall the 993 is like a factory restomod.

Like many things this is an emotional decision. TBH 'like' may not be enough emotion to make the 993 worthwhile - I doubt you'll be disappointed, but maybe not satisfied either.

NOTE: I've read all the responses and appreciate the feedback/ideas. Just specifically replying to this one because of the 993 vs Miata direct comparo.

This is definitely an emotional decision and I can't even say I like how an air cooled Porsche drives yet (I haven't driven one). I'm not looking for objective performance. I've driven many fast modern cars and owned 1-2 of them as well. If I wanted some street destroyer, I'd objectively look at the new Model 3 Performance or Corvette. What I am looking for is a car with character. My current set of cars is an NB1 Miata, NC2 Miata, and C8 Audi A6. I've driven/owned golden era Hondas, E36s, a modern JCW Mini, the F-series M Cars (M2-3-4-5), raced in Spec Miata, etc. The idea of the 993 came because I've always wanted a Porsche, but I also just like the cars from the 90s the most as far as speed/simplicity/feel goes. It seems like it would check all of those boxes. For motorsports usage, I usually have a decent selection of autocross co-drives (and can ride/rent race cars) so that's not a problem anymore. Based on what you said though, maybe parting with 50k+ for the "like of an idea" might not be smart....although I guess it could be resold for similar pricing assuming nothing goes crazy.

Nathan JansenvanDoorn said:

I had a similar experience. 964 and 97 miata at the same time. The 964 was much more special, and unlike anything I've ever had...and I bought it when it was cheap. The view over the fenders, direct steering, outstanding brake and steering feel, first time dumping oil out of the fender (beware!) for an oil change, rear engine, sounds and smells were all very unique.

Once the price started climbing, my comfort level (related to my financial position at the time) had me moving it on. Great experience though.

Notably, while it was super special/weird and a great experience, my smile wasn't really any wider in the 964 compared to the much more conventional mx5.

 

 

Great feedback. Looks like I might be eating up the hype a bit too much.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

The idea of the 993 came because I've always wanted a Porsche, but I also just like the cars from the 90s the most as far as speed/simplicity/feel goes. 

If you want to shoot the middle, try out a nice SW20 MR2 Turbo sometime.  One with a Gen3 or Gen4 engine swap, or import one if you can deal with LHD.  

They're special cars and manage to capture just a little of that stuff that makes the old 911s shine brighter than the specs would suggest.

Driving a 911SC is what made me really want one.

I don't like the later cars.  The power steering kills the experience, and the interior quality is too modern-poofy.  But then that's also where my automotive proclivities lie, the thin rim manual steering and rubber mat experience.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

Driving a 911SC is what made me really want one.

I don't like the later cars.  The power steering kills the experience, and the interior quality is too modern-poofy.

I wish I had access to one.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Work at an indie repair shop that specializes in working on the things other shops won't touch.  Get to drive all sorts of things.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

The 993 is a unique enough driving experience that is sets itself  apart from other cars of the era. Which you may or may not like. A NC Miata will crush it on track but doesn't have that wonderful exhaust note nor the mechanical clatter coming from the back seat.

I liken them to nice back east girls; always honest and straightforward...........even times when you may not want honest and straightforward (Note most of my family is in Jersey and NYC). 

I love air cooled 911s (especially SCs) but I simply cannot justify the prices. I would buy one in a minute if they were still 25-30K  but at 60-140K I'd rather have a newer car.