Air Cooled Porsches --> Never meet your heroes?

Chris and I were just discussing this exact thing yesterday. I had driven 911s before–newer and older–and, when I started thinking about a 911 for myself, got to drive a 911 SC. In fact, it was this very 911 SC. I had driven them before, but not while actually considering one. 

The “meet your heroes“ line is the very line I used yesterday. I met my hero. This is the car that I long wanted. 

Soon after that drive, I lucked into a 3.2L Carrera. 

Fifteen years later, I still have it–and a late-night drive last night confirmed that it’s a keeper. I met my hero, and the romance has never faded. If anything, it’s stronger than ever. 

It’s not about 0-60 or lap times. It’s all about the driving experience. 

Pic from a drive last weekend just because. 

ShawnG said:

Feels like a tarted up VW. 

A very fast, very fun, tarted up VW.

Well, I mean...they are.

David S. Wallens said:

Chris and I were just discussing this exact thing yesterday. I had driven 911s before–newer and older–and, when I started thinking about a 911 for myself, got to drive a 911 SC. In fact, it was this very 911 SC. I had driven them before, but not while actually considering one. 

The “meet your heroes“ line is the very line I used yesterday. I met my hero. This is the car that I long wanted. 

Soon after that drive, I lucked into a 3.2L Carrera. 

Fifteen years later, I still have it–and a late-night drive last night confirmed that it’s a keeper. I met my hero, and the romance has never faded. If anything, it’s stronger than ever. 

It’s not about 0-60 or lap times. It’s all about the driving experience. 

Pic from a drive last weekend just because. 

This is sort of what I am looking for. I've had cars that I just drove as daily appliances for commuting to work. I've had cars I used as tools to compete in some kind of motorsport...but it has truly been awhile since I bought a car to just enjoy and drive for fun on a public road. The current prices are the thing that give me pause and makes me wonder if its worth it since I haven't driven one yet.

In reply to David S. Wallens :

The SC want is huge for me but the 70-80K price tag makes it a deal breaker.

Naturally I still believe there is a driver condition car out there just waiting for me at 35-40K........I can dream.

Go drive one.

It’s more than numbers. It’s the steering, the view over the headlights, the way the door latches close with a certain click. I love the big, round VDO gauges. Simple yet effective. 

The big question: 915 v G50? I have a 915 car. The shifting has been okay. Finally just went through all of it: fresh bushings, proper setup and, the biggie, back to a stock clutch. (Technically the “sport” unit with the aluminum pressure plate.) Huge improvement. 

For me, at least, the G-body 911 is the perfect mix between a classic car with just the right amount of modern touches–like, for example, the Carrera and 1.6L Miatas have similar injection setups. (A 1.6L Miata is modern, right?) The 911 easily runs with modern traffic. Plus it’s the one I wanted as a kid. 

The biggie: If I didn’t like the car so much, I’d sell it. 

Also, starting in the next issue of Classic Motorsports, a full series: life with an air-cooled 911. Plus we have a related video in the works. 

Flyin' Miata started as a Porsche shop back in 1983. It went full-time Miata in 1996, so during that 13 year period it saw a lot of 911s. Bill, the founder, never had much good to say about them although he did say that the Carrera was a big step ahead of the SC. He eventually bought a Cayman S a few decades later although he sold it before I ever laid eyes on it. But he had absolutely no desire for an aircooled 911 thanks to too much exposure to what's under the skin.

The only 911 I've ever driven was a 997.2 C4 cabrio that was parked in my garage for a few weeks. Even this more modern 911 felt like an old car underneath. I've posted elsewhere that it was an unfocused car, not enough of a luxury car to justify the quirks and not enough of a sports car because of the luxury plastered on top. Not so much a problem with the older cars.

Missed my chance to buy an aircooled 911 in 2008. Oh well, there are lots of other interesting things out there. For that sort of money today, I'd be more likely to buy an i8.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

This is definitely an emotional decision and I can't even say I like how an air cooled Porsche drives yet (I haven't driven one).

...

Based on what you said though, maybe parting with 50k+ for the "like of an idea" might not be smart....although I guess it could be resold for similar pricing assuming nothing goes crazy.

My folks live in south Jersey and I visit them, sometimes in the 911. PM me if you're close to Philly and we might be able to set something up. Heck, maybe we can get my pal with a 3.2 Carrera in and do an article.

You'll need to adjust your budget if you want a manual trans and/or a coupe. The only thing worse than a cheap Porsche is a cheap Ferrari, etc.

Keith Tanner said:

The only 911 I've ever driven was a 997.2 C4 cabrio that was parked in my garage for a few weeks. Even this more modern 911 felt like an old car underneath. I've posted elsewhere that it was an unfocused car, not enough of a luxury car to justify the quirks and not enough of a sports car because of the luxury plastered on top.

Missed my chance to buy an aircooled 911 in 2008. Oh well, there are lots of other interesting things out there. For that sort of money, I'd be more likely to buy an i8.

Similar story here, though my experience was a 997 Turbo.  With the $60K+ asking price on 911SC's and later cars, I keep asking myself, "These buyers know the V8 Vantage exists for $45K, right?" :P

David S. Wallens said:

Go drive one.

It’s more than numbers. It’s the steering, the view over the headlights, the way the door latches close with a certain click. I love the big, round VDO gauges. Simple yet effective. 

The big question: 915 v G50? I have a 915 car. The shifting has been okay. Finally just went through all of it: fresh bushings, proper setup and, the biggie, back to a stock clutch. (Technically the “sport” unit with the aluminum pressure plate.) Huge improvement. 

For me, at least, the G-body 911 is the perfect mix between a classic car with just the right amount of modern touches–like, for example, the Carrera and 1.6L Miatas have similar injection setups. (A 1.6L Miata is modern, right?) The 911 easily runs with modern traffic. Plus it’s the one I wanted as a kid. 

The biggie: If I didn’t like the car so much, I’d sell it. 

Also, starting in the next issue of Classic Motorsports, a full series: life with an air-cooled 911. Plus we have a related video in the works. 

Honestly I'd say it's a case of being able to justify the cost. Between my cayman and an air cooled car, if I was choosing one to borrow to drive for a week, it'd be the air cooled car without hesitation. But if I was going to buy one (pretty sure both are about the same price these days) I'd re-buy my cayman with minimal hesitation. But if I already had the Cayman and had that $50k burning a hole in my pocket with nothing more responsible to spend it on...there'd probably be an air cooled 911 in my driveway.

Edit: I don't know how prices compare but if it's not wildly more expensive I'd be looking for a g50 car.

David S. Wallens said:

Go drive one.

It’s more than numbers. It’s the steering, the view over the headlights, the way the door latches close with a certain click. I love the big, round VDO gauges. Simple yet effective. 

I have driven them; mostly on track by virtue of being a PCA instrutor, and love them.

Now that I've ruled out buying another single seat race car it may be closer to reality but alas I need to overcome my innate cheapness.

paddygarcia said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

This is definitely an emotional decision and I can't even say I like how an air cooled Porsche drives yet (I haven't driven one).

...

Based on what you said though, maybe parting with 50k+ for the "like of an idea" might not be smart....although I guess it could be resold for similar pricing assuming nothing goes crazy.

My folks live in south Jersey and I visit them, sometimes in the 911. PM me if you're close to Philly and we might be able to set something up. Heck, maybe we can get my pal with a 3.2 Carrera in and do an article.

You'll need to adjust your budget if you want a manual trans and/or a coupe. The only thing worse than a cheap Porsche is a cheap Ferrari, etc.

I'd love to do this! I'm "close" enough to Philly (about an hour out, but I don't mind driving in general of course).

My old boss had dreamed of a slant nose 911 for years. He'd never owned or really driven an air cooled car in his life. I told him air cooled engines are "alive" and don't behave like his  pickup. He bought a pretty nice slant nose converted car with a crazy turbo setup. It was a beast.

He hardly drove it. He lived in the Atlanta suburbs and commuting in it was a leg workout. Even with the boost dialed down it was borderline suicidal to drive in the wet. It was everything he ever wanted, and he sold it a few years later. Not sure if he broke even on it or not.

David S. Wallens said:

It’s not about 0-60 or lap times. It’s all about the driving experience. 

I think that's why Singers became so popular.

From what I've seen and read, Singer manages to take an already amazing driving experience and turn it up to 11.

Of course, it's also very fast and very expensive.

I have been lucky to have met my heroes in the 911 world.  I am pulled in two  directions.  For a weekend car show car either a mid/late 1980s wide body or a early 70s coup.  For a DD probably a 997.2. I like the level of tech in the 997 cars while it still has a tiny bit of the old school dna.  Get newer and they rapidly get much bigger and more computers.  

It's hard to argue with those who say driving an air cooled 911 is an experience, because they're correct.  However, it's a similar experience to riding a motorcycle.  What I mean is on a motorcycle, frequently you're too cold, too hot, very exposed and uncomfortable.  You've got to really want to ride and like to ride to be willing to accept the frequent uncomfortable times of riding.  It's the same with the air cooled.  You've got to accept the horrible ergonomics, disappointing performance, non existent hvac, etc.

The 911 SC I drove was just too compromised for me.  Performance was bad, hvac didn't exist and the ergonomics simply didn't work for me.  This was back when $10k bought you pretty much any SC you cared to buy.  As far as an economic decision, clearly it was a miss for me.  The 964 has performance that delivers, but the hvac and ergonomics are the same as the older SC.  The 996 works like a real car.  Ergonomics are good, hvac is good, no real compromises.  You and it will remain happy, stuck in traffic on a hot summer day.  Yet it still talks to you in a fashion that none of the newer 911's do, including the 997's.

From a financial standpoint, every time I've declined to buy an older 911, I've seriously screwed up.  I should've bought that SC back in 2005 for $8500 instead of the 944 Turbo S.  I should've bought the 964 C2 for $40k 5 years ago and should've bought the 994 C4S for $75k 4.5 years ago.  They would've out performed the stock market and I would've been able to experience 3 generations of 911's in my garage.  Oh well.....

When I had my '95 Esprit S4s, my brother in law had an '88 (? last year of the 4sp)  Turbo with a big turbo, intercooler, ported heads.  400whp.  Shot flames out the back.  Another friend of mine had a 964 RS America.  I drove them both and was disappointed.  It has been quite a few years but I distinctly remember my b-i-l commenting that his 911 drove like a truck compared to my Lotus.  I barely remember the RS America drive TBH.  Meanwhile, I DO remember my first drive in the Esprit.  "This thing is awesome!"

I think I'm just not a 911 guy despite loving how they look.  My 996 GT3 was kind of annoying to drive around in.  Loud in all the wrong ways ("so that's what a transaxle sounds like"), nose dragging on everything, brakes squealing, weird gearing.  I thought my friend's 996TT was boring.  We put an exhaust on it, which made it loud and boring.  

It's funny how it all works.  I pulled my FFR Cobra out of storage last w/e (sat for 5 months and battery was still at 12.06!).  Driving home, crashing over bumps and darting from left to right (bump steer, I think the toe is out too), I thought about how objectively awful it is and yet totally awesome at the same time.  It doesn't have to make sense.

From a financial standpoint, every time I've declined to buy an older 911, I've seriously screwed up. 

IIRC, my b-i-l sold his for 37ish 15 years ago. It had fashionable-at-one-time boxed rockers.  The buyer managed to source stock rockers.  We heard he sold it some years later for $125.  I'm sure it's worth more now.

In reply to mfennell :

Your comments sum up why I bought a Foxbody Mustang......it's awful but for an awful lot cheaper.

Note I still want an air cooled 911.

In reply to mfennell :

996 GT3's aren't great street cars.  Suspension isn't awesome, clutch pedal feel is quite heavy.  Like all the 996's you do scrape the front lip on everything, same on my turbo. 

I don't find my turbo boring to drive, some simple mods definitely wake it up...

I always love some of these comparisons.  It's almost like saying that I always wanted that Motorola car phone that rich people put in their 1991 560SL, and now that I have one I think the performance of my iPhone 37 blows it out of the water.  Duh...

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

I always love some of these comparisons.  It's almost like saying that I always wanted that Motorola car phone that rich people put in their 1991 560SL, and now that I have one I think the performance of my iPhone 37 blows it out of the water.  Duh...

That made me laugh.  There is a segment out there that wants to be seen in the cool kid's car but then spend every chance they get telling you how bad it is compared to a modern car. (this tends to be younger people)

Duhhhhh  You don't get an old 911 to get a modern car dumb a$$.   I love driving old cars and enjoy them for what they are.  I am now old enough that to me they are time machines.  They take me back to what ever time period the car is from.  70's and 60's cars take me back to the late 70's / early eighties when I was in high school.  An early 70's beetle always sends me back to learning to drive with my godfather when I was 13 in the school parking lot.    It is the smell and the feel that triggers memories and feelings.  I get the fleeting moment to go back to when things were so much more simple.  Woring about asking some one out on a date or just hopping in my car and driving across the country with no plan.  (everyone needs to do this once in there life when they are young)

Cars are time machines to me.  They send me back to periods in my life.  

@ the OP get what ever car is your time machine.  You will know it when you find it.  

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

I always love some of these comparisons.  It's almost like saying that I always wanted that Motorola car phone that rich people put in their 1991 560SL, and now that I have one I think the performance of my iPhone 37 blows it out of the water.  Duh...

For the record I kept my analog cell phone until 2000...........

dean1484 said:

SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:

I always love some of these comparisons.  It's almost like saying that I always wanted that Motorola car phone that rich people put in their 1991 560SL, and now that I have one I think the performance of my iPhone 37 blows it out of the water.  Duh...

That made me laugh.  There is a segment out there that wants to be seen in the cool kid's car but then spend every chance they get telling you how bad it is compared to a modern car. (this tends to be younger people)

Duhhhhh  You don't get an old 911 to get a modern car dumb a$$.   I love driving old cars and enjoy them for what they are.  I am now old enough that to me they are time machines.  They take me back to what ever time period the car is from.  70's and 60's cars take me back to the late 70's / early eighties when I was in high school.  An early 70's beetle always sends me back to learning to drive with my godfather when I was 13 in the school parking lot.    It is the smell and the feel that triggers memories and feelings.  I get the fleeting moment to go back to when things were so much more simple.  Woring about asking some one out on a date or just hopping in my car and driving across the country with no plan.  (everyone needs to do this once in there life when they are young)

Cars are time machines to me.  They send me back to periods in my life.  

 

@ the OP get what ever car is your time machine.  You will know it when you find it.  

Well, as far as time machines go, the ~90s is definitely it for me. Loved my 1987 Supra, and my E36/DC2 Integra/current NB1 Miata are my favorites to drive. I just want to drive something substantial/peak (not a cheap/economical vehicle, but a halo basically) from the 90s which is why I directly went to something like the 993 911. I'd love to drive an NSX but those seem unobtainium.

In reply to dean1484 :

Ironically as the old car stalwart here I don't drive them because they are time machines; I actually like them better for most things.

For track work I like light cars on skinny tires; new cars are fat.

I enjoy cars whereby  four wheel drifting them is the fastest way to drive them.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

The first generation of NSXs are fantastic and hassle free.

I know this ain't an Air-Cooled 911. E36 M3, it's not a 911 but if you're looking for the "Experience", I'd get a 987 Boxster/Cayman S. The .1's are quite a bit less expensive than the .2's but the difference is not as great as the price differential. Literally, the best bang for the buck IMHO...