Air Cooled Porsches --> Never meet your heroes?

Weirdly, my Quantum had a driving position and general "layout feel" very similar to a 911.

But the pedals hinged on the wrong end.  And the heavy engine was stuck out kissing the front bumper instead of the back one.  But at least you used the correct hand to turn the ignition key.

rdcyclist said:

I know this ain't an Air-Cooled 911. E36 M3, it's not a 911 but if you're looking for the "Experience", I'd get a 987 Boxster/Cayman S. The .1's are quite a bit less expensive than the .2's but the difference is not as great as the price differential. Literally, the best bang for the buck IMHO...

I'd probably go with the 996 911 turbo before that though (the 996 Carrera and up have bore scoring issues which seem like game enders). I don't have any particular interest in the 997s/987s era cars. (The 987s I've sat in/driven just feel like a nicer version of my NC2 Miata)

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

I test drove an NC2 before buying my 986 and I find this surprising

If you do want to try the Porsche experience the 996/986 is a cheap buy in. Like others have said they are daily usable but still connected. 
 

Most maintenance issues seem overblown to me but my data point is only 1. 

spandak said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

I test drove an NC2 before buying my 986 and I find this surprising

 

If you do want to try the Porsche experience the 996/986 is a cheap buy in. Like others have said they are daily usable but still connected. 
 

Most maintenance issues seem overblown to me but my data point is only 1. 

Yeah I'm not sure if I can put my finger on it but I didn't really enjoy the 987s as much as I thought I would. The 986 reminds me more of my NC2 (in a more "exact" quantity) which isn't a bad thing. I've been yearning after 996 turbos for awhile but the thought of an air cooled 993 popped up in my head one day and that's why this thread exists. Trying to figure out if unloading all of my cars to buy one is worth it or not, as I've always been a proponent of having multiple cars for different occasions.

I bought a cheap 986 with 148k miles and have driven it quite a bit (175k now) and it has been surprisingly reliable.  It does have a lot of annoying electrical problems and the top mechanism broke so reaching some engine parts will be a problem if I end up needing to do that, but it's better than I expected it would be.  

Tom1200 said:

In reply to dean1484 :

Ironically as the old car stalwart here I don't drive them because they are time machines; I actually like them better for most things.

For track work I like light cars on skinny tires; new cars are fat.

I enjoy cars whereby  four wheel drifting them is the fastest way to drive them.

 

Completely agree!!!   It is why I gave my newest car to my daughter.  It was just not for me. 

My only Porsche experience is with a 986 S. And it was a good bit of fun but the looming engine problems and just how tedious it was to work on compared to my other cars had me get rid of it. It still felt great to drive, and someday I will get a proper 911 but I need to go up a few tax brackets first 

One day I need to write this down–don’t think I have yet but could be wrong–but my 911 journey actually started with the quest for an M3. The 911, at the time, represented the value buy. 

bailion said:

My only Porsche experience is with a 986 S. And it was a good bit of fun but the looming engine problems and just how tedious it was to work on compared to my other cars had me get rid of it. It still felt great to drive, and someday I will get a proper 911 but I need to go up a few tax brackets first 

Even as my career has gotten to a very good place, I still feel weird when it comes to this kind of stuff in the sense that I feel guilt for buying something thats old, impractical and expensive to buy (which is why I usually had things like Miatas etc) and expensive to maintain. I figured I've been driving the cheap stuff all my life so maybe I should jump into the pool here.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Your dilemma is pretty much mine as well.

I now have a solid six figure income, my mortgage is only 14% of my take home and I only have 4-5 years left on that. Yet I have difficult time with the thought of spending 40-60K on a car. I know I can easily afford it but the thought of spending more than 20-25K on an extravagance doesn't compute for me.

On the plus side you likely wouldn't lose a dime on a 911.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

If I'd bought that first 911 SC I looked at in 2005 for $8000, it'd be worth $40-50k now.  If I'd bought that 964C2 for $40k 5 years ago it'd be worth $130-150k now, if I'd bought that 993C4S for $75k 4 years ago it'd be worth $130-140k now.  Even my 996 Turbo, the black sheep of 911's is worth quite a bit more than I paid for it.

Don't worry about the cost, if you want a 911, buy one.  It'll be worth at least what you've got into it and most likely far more, when you decide to sell it later.

docwyte said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

If I'd bought that first 911 SC I looked at in 2005 for $8000, it'd be worth $40-50k now.  If I'd bought that 964C2 for $40k 5 years ago it'd be worth $130-150k now, if I'd bought that 993C4S for $75k 4 years ago it'd be worth $130-140k now.  Even my 996 Turbo, the black sheep of 911's is worth quite a bit more than I paid for it.

Don't worry about the cost, if you want a 911, buy one.  It'll be worth at least what you've got into it and most likely far more, when you decide to sell it later.

Its funny, I've also been looking at 996 turbo's lately. Is yours 6 speed or tip tronic? The tiptronics oddly sell for nothing compared to the 6 speeds and I wonder how much "worse" they really are.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Mines a 6MT.  I wouldn't even consider a tiptronic, it's really a crap auto box and destroys the driving experience.

What I said above about getting your money back on a 911 won't hold true with a tiptronic car

docwyte said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

If I'd bought that first 911 SC I looked at in 2005 for $8000, it'd be worth $40-50k now.  If I'd bought that 964C2 for $40k 5 years ago it'd be worth $130-150k now, if I'd bought that 993C4S for $75k 4 years ago it'd be worth $130-140k now.  Even my 996 Turbo, the black sheep of 911's is worth quite a bit more than I paid for it.

Don't worry about the cost, if you want a 911, buy one.  It'll be worth at least what you've got into it and most likely far more, when you decide to sell it later.

I seem to recall that David had to rebuild the engine in his early on, but even with that he was ahead before the aircooled stuff really went nuts. 911 values are doing goofy things, will they continue?

I wish I could have responded earlier, but I own a air cooled 911, and I've owned 2 NC Miatas, couple of Mustangs, Austin Healey Sprite, and lots of Jeeps. When I got my 911 nobody wanted the 74-77 cars. I was actually looking for a MGB or TR6 because they were more affordable. When I drove the 911 I was in love. I had posters of 930 turbos and Ferraris on my walls. I always thought those cars would be unattainable for me. In 2001 I bought my car for $7k which seemed like a fortune at the time. I really wanted a big Healey (still do) but I couldn't afford them. 

What I found after purchase was if I wanted to keep the car I had to learn to work on it. There are tons of forums (this one included) with knowledgeable folks about fixing these cars. Parts are available, yes gotten more expensive, but still available. 

I love the feel and steering of the 911. Driving the 911 back to back with an NC Miata the 911 just feels crisper on the steering.  My car feels like it has less body roll, and is just flatter through a corner.  The engine noises and how the shifter snicks into spot are just cool.  Like others I've spent many an evening in the garage with a beer just hanging with the car. When I park it, I always look back. 

I wouldn't use my 911 as a DD. Mines a targa with no AC and it gets hot in TN. There's also the fear of an accident. I didn't used to have that fear, but knowing I'll never be able to afford another one makes me drive it a bit more cautiously.

My suggestion to anyone test driving a 911, or worrying about meeting their hero, would be this...Go in with an open mind to just drive and enjoy the car. Try not to immediately compare it to anything else you've driven. It is entirely different from almost everything you driven. Front engine cars pull you along, the 911 pushes you along. It's just a different feel. Listen to the car, for all the sounds, how the door closes, how the fuel pump clicks on, etc. Make sure it is warmed up and at operating temp, and then give it a row through the gears. 

I've never driven a Cayman, but size wise they are a lot closer to my car than the big bloated 911s of today. 
 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Yes, soon after buying the car, we found a broken head stud. Looking back, a PPI would have found it. I was told one had been done. Or, pretty sure I was told that. Oh well.

This is a 3.2L engine, not the 2.7L more associated with that problem. (The general theory now is that the good 2.7L cars have been fixed by this point.) The engine might have had 130k at this point. That number might be in the updates. 

We suspected some worn valve guides, too, so we used the opportunity to have the heads redone. JB Racing, located next to Alex Job’s shop, did the heads. 

While the engine was out, we did the usual “while you’re in there” things: clutch, a bunch of soft bits, etc. Total bill (off my head and from a dozen years ago) was about $7000. A friend who used to own a Porsche shop did the labor. The stock studs were replaced with ARP hardware. All parts were readily available. 

You can read the updates here.

Even with that, money-wise I’m still so, so ahead of the curve here.

And would I have bought that same car again, knowing the engine needed the work? In a New York minute. 

Major work since then? Just had the clutch replaced again as I got tired of the aftermarket clutch installed during the head redo. While the engine was out (this time), we again replaced some hoses and soft bits since they were easily accessible at the moment. The cam angle sensors weren’t giving me any trouble, but since they were right there, for example, we replaced them. Other than those two big services, it’s really just been the occasional valve adjustment and regular oil changes.

Will Porsche 911 prices continue to trend upward? I think the demand is still there as it’s a usable, iconic car that delivers a very unique experience. Prices may take a breather–or they may not–but I don’t see these cars regularly selling in the teens again. 

docwyte said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

If I'd bought that first 911 SC I looked at in 2005 for $8000, it'd be worth $40-50k now.  If I'd bought that 964C2 for $40k 5 years ago it'd be worth $130-150k now, if I'd bought that 993C4S for $75k 4 years ago it'd be worth $130-140k now.  Even my 996 Turbo, the black sheep of 911's is worth quite a bit more than I paid for it.

Don't worry about the cost, if you want a 911, buy one.  It'll be worth at least what you've got into it and most likely far more, when you decide to sell it later.

Which is also why "now" is the best time to buy one. You can try to wait a few years and save up some money, but chances are the value will outpace your savings and you'll end up in the same or worse shape to be affording the purchase.

In reply to octavious :

You should have it insured for the proper amount with a stated value company like Hagerty.  You still don't want to get into an accident, but if you do, at least you'll get enough from insurance to buy another one.

In reply to docwyte :

It's not through Hagerty but it does have an agreed to policy through the USAA partner for classic car insurance. Speaking of which it is due again this month and I will recheck it. 

In reply to octavious :

Interesting, I didn't know USAA had a partner classic car insurance company.  Have you price checked them against Hagerty?

This isn't really relevant to the discussion as such, but one of the reasons that 911s (and NSX, and older M3s, and anything rare and with name recognition) have become so expensive is that with zero interest rate policy starting right after 1999-2000 and continuing for 20 years, there was no way to generate return on money just by putting it in a savings account, or really buying bonds or anything safe, or what would typically form the basis of a conservative investment portfolio. 

In order to find return, cash has been flowing into many different places instead. Real estate, art, rare cars have all seen massive appreciation over this time period, and until there's a significant correction, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy and appreciation will continue. However, unless interest rates go back to zero, there's a possibility that asset prices will correct to the historical norm. I can't say when or which assets will be affected the most, but it's possible.

Anyway, carry on.

In reply to docwyte :

I did, but I don't remember the difference. 

In reply to octavious :

USAA uses American Collectors.  I price checked Hagerty vs Grundy and American Collectors and at least for me, Hagerty is still the cheapest

Some (more) personal talk about life with an air-cooled Porsche 911. (Ironically we had this shot before this thread started.)

In reply to docwyte :

Well you caused me to check, for me Hagarty's quote is more than double, almost triple what mine is with AC.