Can someone explain to me why Hoosier/Conti made this tire at a tread depth that's a no-go for SCCA? I'm confused.
Can someone explain to me why Hoosier/Conti made this tire at a tread depth that's a no-go for SCCA? I'm confused.
CyberEric said:Can someone explain to me why Hoosier/Conti made this tire at a tread depth that's a no-go for SCCA? I'm confused.
Asked and answered. Go back and read all my posts in this thread.
TL;DR it is and always was designed as a streetable track day tire. Note the name. Ignore the 200. It is a competitor to SC3R, Cup 2R, Trofeo R. Hoosier sees that as a larger market than SCCA autocrosser and TT folks.
I wonder how much time difference there would be between the new Hoho and a Conti ECF for most of us mere mortals? The cost difference would certainly push me towards the ECF.
DeadSkunk (Warren) said:I wonder how much time difference there would be between the new Hoho and a Conti ECF for most of us mere mortals? The cost difference would certainly push me towards the ECF.
The ECF is far and away the better value proposition, because they last *forever* for HPDE...they just aren't current Super 200 fast. And it sounds like the TAP is at least SC3R/Trofeo R fast.
Here's what TireRack got from testing a bunch of track tires around Gingerman in 2022:
In reply to flyin_viata :
Well, for the budget minded TireRack has old stock Bridgestones as low as $87, so that's an option. Lots of choices depending how close one wants to be to the pointy end of the field.
MiniDave said:Anything available in a 13"?
I’ve lobbied for sticky, relatively inexpensive 13- and 14-inch tires in the past. A friend in the tire industry was like, David, do you know how much it costs to make just one mold? And then you have to build the tires–which usually means stopping production of the more common SKUs–and then ship and stock them.
So, I asked, what about importing something that already existed in an overseas market? He pointed back to the cost of shipping and storing the tires. He just couldn’t go to the mothership with a plan that didn’t look profitable. (His company does make race tires, though, just not in those small sizes.)
In reply to Andy Hollis :
So the question then becomes how quick do they come on? One of the biggest differences between the 100TW class and the 200TW class (other than grip levels) are how quickly they come on. 200TW tires come on quick enough to actually be good for street use.
While the SC3R's are amazing on track, it is actually worse to use than the standard SC3 because you can't get enough heat in them to "turn them on"
Can you comment on that with the Track Attacks?
TRZ06 said:In reply to Andy Hollis :
So the question then becomes how quick do they come on? One of the biggest differences between the 100TW class and the 200TW class (other than grip levels) are how quickly they come on. 200TW tires come on quick enough to actually be good for street use.
While the SC3R's are amazing on track, it is actually worse to use than the standard SC3 because you can't get enough heat in them to "turn them on"
Can you comment on that with the Track Attacks?
I'll know more when I test, but early word is that they need some heat.
I think I want these tires just for how they would look on the car-lol. No, seriously, I'll have to make a decision on tires for next year, waiting to see what happens between now and then
Hoosier/Conti did all the testing for the tire to actually meet the 200TW rating why not add the 2/32" to widen the customer base?
In reply to Cyclone03 :
That's what I'm thinking!
Thanks for the answer above Andy, and it still doesn't make sense to me. Is it because the tire would not be competitive with the other tires like the cup2r, Trofeo R and GYSC3 if it were 7/32s?
Cyclone03 said:Hoosier/Conti did all the testing for the tire to actually meet the 200TW rating why not add the 2/32" to widen the customer base?
As we've seen from plenty of testing, deeper tread depth adversely affects performance. Shallow is quicker and more consistent. Further, a shallow tread thickness also allows for softer compounds that may not be able to withstand motorsports use at thicker depths. Graining, overheating and even chunking can occur with thick soft compounds. There's a reason real race tires, and even r-comps come molded typically to only 4/32nds.
Are these the actual reasons for the design decision? Hoosier won't say. But they make sense.
Speculation, but another possible reason for making it at 5/32 is so that SCCA doesn't have to put it on the explicit exclusion list. This is more "political" than technical, but once a tire shows up on exclusion list there is often a snowball effect leading it to getting added to other ones as well (see the fuss about the Vitour). By making it already ineligible SCCA doesn't have to do anything and Hoosier/Conti avoid any bad press from appearing to be "gaming" the autox rules.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Speculation, but another possible reason for making it at 5/32 is so that SCCA doesn't have to put it on the explicit exclusion list. This is more "political" than technical, but once a tire shows up on exclusion list there is often a snowball effect leading it to getting added to other ones as well (see the fuss about the Vitour). By making it already ineligible SCCA doesn't have to do anything and Hoosier/Conti avoid any bad press from appearing to be "gaming" the autox rules.
While is all possible...and easy to jump to if you are an SCCA-centric competitor...I was told with a very straight face by both the product marketing director and the lead engineer that SCCA was never the intended market. And that they were willing to forgo it to be tops in what they perceive to be the more lucrative streetable track day crowd. Folks that drive their cars to the track, run hard, and drive home. Not gonna do that on A7/R7. Typical answer is SC3R, Trofeo R and Cup 2R.
Around here, I see this market in action at COTA track days. Lots of expensive fast cars with sticky tires, driven to/from the event.
Edit: Thinking further on this...if you wanted to stay away from SCCA with a tire that would otherwise be eligible, it would be MUCH easier to simply derate it to 180tw. That decision could be undone at any time, whilst tread depth requires a lot of capital investment and testing.
Yeah a thought pattern that we get trapped in from time to time is assuming that the SCCA is the center of the universe. It may be the center of *our* universe, but there's a huge portion of track culture out there (measured in participation numbers and, more importantly , $$$$$$) that has a far lower profile to the rest of the community, cares little about competition and spends obscene amounts of money driving expensive cars on track. The country club/private track day crowd is bigger than you think, and more powerful market-wise than e realize sometimes.
Think about it this way: Which customer would you rather have? The guy with the GT3RS than orders five sets of tires a year no questions asked or the guy with the Miata who wants to buy a used set of tires and use it to win free tires from you then complains about price when you tell him he's got to buy a new set to be eligible to get a free set.
The bottom line is that we may think we buy a lot of tires, but we don't buy nearly as many tires as the fast car/money is no object crowd.
I'd love to see another entry into the 200tw wars in my chosen scene. Maybe this Hoosier will be that entry. but for our market, they seem to be taking their time and not diving right in.
JG Pasterjak said:Think about it this way: Which customer would you rather have? The guy with the GT3RS than orders five sets of tires a year no questions asked or the guy with the Miata who wants to buy a used set of tires and use it to win free tires from you then complains about price when you tell him he's got to buy a new set to be eligible to get a free set.
Data point...Hoosier really wanted me to test these on the McLaren instead of the Miata.
TRZ06 said:In reply to Andy Hollis :
So the question then becomes how quick do they come on? One of the biggest differences between the 100TW class and the 200TW class (other than grip levels) are how quickly they come on. 200TW tires come on quick enough to actually be good for street use.
Answering this again in light of "SCCA autocross" viability...
Thicker tread depth on a street tire creates more squirm which produces more heat which lights off the compound quicker. Take the A052...can be effective at short-run autocross even in cool conditions with no co-driver when at full tread. At half tread, might take a run to wake up. At 2/32nds, might take two.
When I run A052 on the track, where I put a lot of energy in the tire immediately, a full-tread tire is only optimal for a single lap. Half-tread will go a couple of laps before soaking. And a 2/32nds tire will do a string of 6-8, but be a little edgier and needs a harder out lap.
If I was Hoosier, and wanted to address the SCCA autocross market at a future date, I'd simply put another 2/32nds on the tire at that time and maybe tweak the compound.
Cone Attack Pro! 
Andy Hollis said:Cone Attack Pro!
Gives new meaning to the old phrase "CAP your ass!" haha.
Any updates? I know the team mentioned you'd have the tires on test this week.
goingnowherefast said:Any updates? I know the team mentioned you'd have the tires on test this week.
Shipping delay. Hoping for next week now.
When the test does get done, it won't end up in this thread. Deserves its own full story.
Andy Hollis said:
They sent Andy Hollis to driving school? Is someone going to tell them?
Interested to see results. Anecdotally, I heard from a few people that they weren't a massive fan of how they felt at Gridlife Pittrace. However, it also depends what experience they have on other tires etc.
Another one.
Yah, someone I know mentioned the people at Pittrace said it fell off pretty quick. Another buddy ran into someone at a HPDE the week before who was reporting pretty much the same thing. That it heat cycles really quickly.
Does the Gridlife TA format support tires that take a couple warmup laps to come into window?
Put another way, do CRSv2 take more heat to turn on than the TAP?
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