Am I the only one completely over AWD?

Up here in New England, AWD can be useful, since the weather sucks a good portion of the time. When I ditched my Subaru for my FWD Mazda 3, I was a little nervous. I immediately went out and purchased a set of dedicated snows. To my surprise, the car on snows is more than capable in handling whatever grossness the winters here toss at you. Only thing I really miss: AWD snow-covered parking lot sessions where I could ape Colin McRae. The 3 can't hold a candle to that.

Also, if it's snowing and I'm driving the Mazda, the traction control gets switched OFF. The car will not move unless I can get some wheel spin happening to get me out of the hole.

I wish someone else other than Subaru made a semi-affordable (aka, low to mid $20k range) performance oriented AWD car with a stick. Yes, I know Mitsubishi had the Ralliart, but I wasn't a fan. It will likely never happen at this point.

What do we call the system that is FWD until the TC engages the rear wheels ?

How long does it stay engaged ?

Chripes, even JEEP is using it.

In reply to Tony Sestito:

TC allows wheel spin. At least on my Fiesta.

The light blinks indicating wheel spin, then goes off when traction is reached.

iceracer wrote: What do we call the system that is FWD until the TC engages the rear wheels ? How long does it stay engaged ? Chripes, even JEEP is using it.

AWD with heavy front bias?

Tony Sestito wrote: Also, if it's snowing and I'm driving the Mazda, the traction control gets switched OFF. The car will not move unless I can get some wheel spin happening to get me out of the hole.

My VW is the same way. Sketchy conditions = ESP-OFF. It makes the handling very unpredictable.

I'm actually a huge fan of RWD in crappy weather, because that's what I've been driving my entire life. If the snow is so deep that 2wd doesn't cut it, I simply get out, lock my hubs, and drive off in 4wd.

As always, ymmv...

In reply to iceracer:

In my car, the second the wheels start to spin, the car's ECU declares " The party's over, folks!" and shuts throttle control down. It's helpful at speed, but it makes getting out of the hole very hard in the snow.

Tony Sestito wrote: I wish someone else other than Subaru made a semi-affordable (aka, low to mid $20k range) performance oriented AWD car with a stick. Yes, I know Mitsubishi had the Ralliart, but I wasn't a fan. It will likely never happen at this point.

VW Golf Sportwagen 4Motion or Alltrack? +1 point for wagon body, -1 for questionable performance. The 1.8T EA888 engine is pretty tuneable and there's a lot of aftermarket parts for the chassis.

iceracer wrote: What do we call the system that is FWD until the TC engages the rear wheels ?

Slip and grip. Most car AWD systems run 2WD most of the time and bring in the second axle when needed. There are quite a few differences in how. Best I've encountered is Mazda's, it's actually predictive based on other sensors instead of just reaction to what's happened. Running on snow/ice on a handle course, it's enabling you instead of restricting you. The CRV and Forester along for the day were just the opposite, mostly a big TC festival. Yes, I said Forester.

New Foresters. Mine has a 50/50 torque split by default and an LSD rear.

I say it's engineering dependent based on vehicle. Evo AWD especially Evo X with active yaw control/vectoring rear differential is a unique experience and is "enabling."

That being said, I wouldn't want to service my own AWD -- way out of my ability level in terms of mechanical complexity.

In reply to Tony Sestito: well, I guess I am lucky I have a Ford.

vigo but it can make the car turn harder, the issue is that if you use the technique on the street you will get carted off by La Policia........ no matter how hard you explain the concept of thrust vectoring. I get what you're saying as most people who make the statement are not capable of,using the advantage

Well, that's because most people aren't capable of controlling one brake at a time on the fly. You need a computer to do that, and all the older stuff doesn't have it. I really think that this idea that 'dumb' (no e-diff torque-vectoring computer stuff) AWD makes cars handle better just comes from the fact that AWD are less sensitive to throttle induced understeer than FWD cars are. But, it doesn't actually make them turn harder. Just more accomodating of poor cornering technique.

In reply to Vigo:

So AWD corners less badly? Actually that makes sense.

turtl631 wrote:

Tony Sestito wrote: I wish someone else other than Subaru made a semi-affordable (aka, low to mid $20k range) performance oriented AWD car with a stick. Yes, I know Mitsubishi had the Ralliart, but I wasn't a fan. It will likely never happen at this point.

VW Golf Sportwagen 4Motion or Alltrack? +1 point for wagon body, -1 for questionable performance. The 1.8T EA888 engine is pretty tuneable and there's a lot of aftermarket parts for the chassis.

-9 for being a modern VAG product.

iceracer wrote: In reply to Tony Sestito: well, I guess I am lucky I have a Ford.

Not all Fords are like that. On my 2010 Transit Connect when a wheel started spinning TC would apply the brakes to that wheel. When the other wheel started to spin brakes were applied to that wheel too. When you buy Blizacks and you end up sitting in an icy parking lot with your foot on the gas going nowhere it isn't funny.

Give me rwd and a diff, that's all I need. Awd is fine if you have 6-700+ hp, but less than that imho it's not beneficial to the driving experience. There hasn't been a storm that I've seen since I've been driving (here in mass) thats stopped me from getting where I'm going with snows, rwd and an lsd.

In reply to sesto elemento:

Can you tell me what type of vehicle you drive? I'm in MA to and I kinda lean toward your way of thinking though I drive an AWD.

My Is300 sedan with an lsd was really good in the snow, next year I'm gonna winter/dd my silver mr-spyder turbo. Gonna throw stock springs and dampers in it and do some slightly taller than stock aggressive snows and some rally lighting. I'm goin for a lancia stratos rallycar vibe

Only reliable..........I hope.

A friend of mine has proven quite a few people wrong about needing FWD / AWD for snow in upstate NY. He's driven through some of the worst snowstorms we've had the last few years in an E46 on snows (open diff). As in, storms bad enough to have me going for 4wd in the Jeep with snows on it.

I drive an e30 325iX in the wintertime. I agree that 95% of the time, all wheel drive is not necessary but it sure is nice to have for that other 5%.

Plus, it's a cool little car.

@Vigo the joy of AWD is you can really make the back rotate around the front but as noted you really need to know what your doing. If I had to put hard numbers on it I'd say it's worth 1/2 mph and maybe 2% on dry pavement in lower speed corners for the average car. Even in my gutless Datsun I could take advantage of it in 4 or 5 corners at my local track. In a daily driver that's pavement only (I live in the desert remember) I'd do without the extra weight.

Tom

Appleseed wrote:

captdownshift wrote: In reply to Keith Tanner: True, but traction control is defeatable, AWD isn't

You've never welded a center diff and popped the front CVs have you?

You answered a question I came to ask, thanks muchly. I need to go away and rethink a few basic principles.

This right here has me thinking

I love my AWD cars. There is a huge advantage in everyday driving on dry roads. You can floor it in just about any situation and just GO. No worries, no drama, just point and shoot. FWD is a let down in those situations. RWD is fun, but you need that little bit (or a lot ) of extra care that you don't need in an AWD car. With RWD cars, you need to be measured, and precise. AWD cars you need to drive like you are mad at them.

On slippery surfaces, you don't need AWD- but a similar AWD will flat dominate a 2WD in those conditions.

As for sub 3000lb. AWD's, the early DSM's could dip just below that if spec'ed right. My Talon weighed 3075 with tools and a cooler in the trunk. You could get one without power windows or AC like mine had.

Tom1200 wrote: @Vigo the joy of AWD is you can really make the back rotate around the front but as noted you really need to know what your doing.

And rotation under power happens even more easily with RWD