And I'm no longer interested in the FT-86...

ReverendDexter wrote: Here's why I'm NOT a horsepower junky: To me, the fun part of driving is pushing the limits of the car; 99% of my driving is on the street and I don't like to interact with law enforcement. With 100hp, I can tach out 1st and 2nd gear and not be speeding in a 45 zone. Going up a windy mountain road? I can drive at the absolute limit of the car and never be doing anything that will pique Johnny Law's interest when I pop around a corner to see him sitting there. Even with "only" 300 hp, I can NEVER push it. Romp on it in 1st? Either I'm low geared, in which case I'm spinning the tires, or I'm high geared, and I'm suddenly at extralegal speeds. Which means I have to drive like a grandma *everywhere*. If I'm gonna drive like a grandma, why have 300+ hp?

I have no idea what you're talking about. My DD has over 300HP and there are plenty of times I can use it on my daily 72 mile round trip commute if I want.

Driving like a grandma all the time because you can't use 300HP on the street? Really?

rwdsport wrote: The scion TC with the overpriced TRD supercharger is still slower than a stock SI through the 1/4. Im pretty sure the supercharger bumps it higher than the Si too. Try comparing the interior quality on top of that. Just saying.

what does a '11 SI run you? is it less than $18k? Also, this is the ENTRY TC. I wonder what you could get factory installed in a TC for SI money?

EDIT:

• Bone stock Civic SI coupe on Hondas website: $22,205
• Bone stock TC on Scions website: $18,995
• TC with TRD springs, TRD exhaust, TRD filter, TRD shifter kit, and TRD strut tower bar - factory installed - $20, 598

The choice is clear in my mind. If you want to get hung up on the interior, be my guest. I dont bring show to a go fight.

Cotton wrote:

ReverendDexter wrote: Here's why I'm NOT a horsepower junky: To me, the fun part of driving is pushing the limits of the car; 99% of my driving is on the street and I don't like to interact with law enforcement. With 100hp, I can tach out 1st and 2nd gear and not be speeding in a 45 zone. Going up a windy mountain road? I can drive at the absolute limit of the car and never be doing anything that will pique Johnny Law's interest when I pop around a corner to see him sitting there. Even with "only" 300 hp, I can NEVER push it. Romp on it in 1st? Either I'm low geared, in which case I'm spinning the tires, or I'm high geared, and I'm suddenly at extralegal speeds. Which means I have to drive like a grandma *everywhere*. If I'm gonna drive like a grandma, why have 300+ hp?

I have no idea what you're talking about. My DD has over 300HP and there are plenty of times I can use it on my daily 72 mile round trip commute if I want. Driving like a grandma all the time because you can't use 300HP on the street? Really?

Yeah, my commute is only 40 miles roundtrip but I feel the same way. On-ramps, cloverleafs, passing slower traffic, take a twisty backroad on the way home instead of the highway.

There seems to be almost an elite status that people attach to "I'm so above HP, I like the turns" that's so boring. Like that HP is for the masses and only the esoteric "get" slow cars.

4cylndrfury wrote:

rwdsport wrote: The scion TC with the overpriced TRD supercharger is still slower than a stock SI through the 1/4. Im pretty sure the supercharger bumps it higher than the Si too. Try comparing the interior quality on top of that. Just saying.

what does a '11 SI run you? is it less than $18k? Also, this is the ENTRY TC. I wonder what you could get factory installed in a TC for SI money? EDIT: - Bone stock Civic SI coupe on Hondas website: $22,205 - Bone stock TC on Scions website: $18,995 - TC with TRD springs, TRD exhaust, TRD filter, TRD shifter kit, and TRD strut tower bar - factory installed - $20, 598 The choice is clear in my mind. If you want to get hung up on the interior, be my guest. I dont bring show to a go fight.

I would bet that the Si would still out "go" it.

rotard wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

rwdsport wrote: The scion TC with the overpriced TRD supercharger is still slower than a stock SI through the 1/4. Im pretty sure the supercharger bumps it higher than the Si too. Try comparing the interior quality on top of that. Just saying.

what does a '11 SI run you? is it less than $18k? Also, this is the ENTRY TC. I wonder what you could get factory installed in a TC for SI money? EDIT: - Bone stock Civic SI coupe on Hondas website: $22,205 - Bone stock TC on Scions website: $18,995 - TC with TRD springs, TRD exhaust, TRD filter, TRD shifter kit, and TRD strut tower bar - factory installed - $20, 598 The choice is clear in my mind. If you want to get hung up on the interior, be my guest. I dont bring show to a go fight.

I would bet that the Si would still out "go" it.

It'd be close either way, i would imagine.

This is all mental masturbation considering that the new Si is coming soon, and hilariously, matches the tC closer than it did before.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

rotard wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

rwdsport wrote: The scion TC with the overpriced TRD supercharger is still slower than a stock SI through the 1/4. Im pretty sure the supercharger bumps it higher than the Si too. Try comparing the interior quality on top of that. Just saying.

what does a '11 SI run you? is it less than $18k? Also, this is the ENTRY TC. I wonder what you could get factory installed in a TC for SI money? EDIT: - Bone stock Civic SI coupe on Hondas website: $22,205 - Bone stock TC on Scions website: $18,995 - TC with TRD springs, TRD exhaust, TRD filter, TRD shifter kit, and TRD strut tower bar - factory installed - $20, 598 The choice is clear in my mind. If you want to get hung up on the interior, be my guest. I dont bring show to a go fight.

I would bet that the Si would still out "go" it.

It'd be close either way, i would imagine. This is all mental masturbation considering that the new Si is coming soon, and hilariously, matches the tC closer than it did before.

I guess Im part of the esoteric crowd, Id rather turn fast in the esses than go fast in a line. Id be willing to bet the TC with the springs, shifter, and decent rubber would be faster under the same driver on a give course. Thats important to me.

And Id be willing to bet body parts the "new SI" will be portlier than the last...it always is.

4cylndrfury wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

rotard wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote:

rwdsport wrote: The scion TC with the overpriced TRD supercharger is still slower than a stock SI through the 1/4. Im pretty sure the supercharger bumps it higher than the Si too. Try comparing the interior quality on top of that. Just saying.

what does a '11 SI run you? is it less than $18k? Also, this is the ENTRY TC. I wonder what you could get factory installed in a TC for SI money? EDIT: - Bone stock Civic SI coupe on Hondas website: $22,205 - Bone stock TC on Scions website: $18,995 - TC with TRD springs, TRD exhaust, TRD filter, TRD shifter kit, and TRD strut tower bar - factory installed - $20, 598 The choice is clear in my mind. If you want to get hung up on the interior, be my guest. I dont bring show to a go fight.

I would bet that the Si would still out "go" it.

It'd be close either way, i would imagine. This is all mental masturbation considering that the new Si is coming soon, and hilariously, matches the tC closer than it did before.

I guess Im part of the esoteric crowd, Id rather turn fast in the esses than go fast in a line. Id be willing to bet the TC with the springs, shifter, and decent rubber would be faster under the same driver on a give course. Thats important to me. And Id be willing to bet body parts the "new SI" will be portlier than the last...it *always* is.

I have a buddy that assembles them. It is.

4cylndrfury wrote: I guess Im part of the esoteric crowd, Id rather turn fast in the esses than go fast in a line.

Why is this the standard retort?

As if it's completely impossible to give a car power AND handling prowess.

Why are we arguing about which mid-15 second car is faster?

Insert offensive demotivational poster here.

z31maniac wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: I guess Im part of the esoteric crowd, Id rather turn fast in the esses than go fast in a line.

Why is this the standard retort? As if it's completely impossible to give a car power AND handling prowess.

That's what I thought too, but I just gave up.....I mean give me a break.

Like when Car and Driver had that tuner 4 banger challenge, then brought a stock Z06 in which wiped the floor will all of them in the tests.....turning included!!!

No joke, $19k for a Scion? I would rather have a C5 'vette any day.

dculberson wrote: No joke, $19k for a Scion? I would rather have a C5 'vette any day.

Where are you finding those new at a dealer w/ warranty?

This forum is fond of apples to tofu comparisons. (I'd rather have the C5, too.)

I believe it's safe to say that nobody is going to cross shop a NEW tC and a USED C5.

Cotton wrote: Like when Car and Driver had that tuner 4 banger challenge, then brought a stock Z06 in which wiped the floor will all of them in the tests.....turning included!!!

That's great - I had not seen that. Link?

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: w/ warranty? This forum is fond of apples to tofu comparisons. (I'd rather have the C5, too.)

Warranty? Who here has even had anything done on warranty. Seriously. I have not, anyway.

tuna55 wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: w/ warranty? This forum is fond of apples to tofu comparisons. (I'd rather have the C5, too.)

Warranty? Who here has even had anything done on warranty. Seriously. I have not, anyway.

We are the 0.005% minority here. I HIGHLY doubt that manufacturers really care what we think.

tuna55 wrote:

Cotton wrote: Like when Car and Driver had that tuner 4 banger challenge, then brought a stock Z06 in which wiped the floor will all of them in the tests.....turning included!!!

That's great - I had not seen that. Link?

Here you go: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/03q3/superfour_challenge-comparison_tests

Edit: I haven't been able to find where in that article it is mentioned, but here is a thread from this very board where Keith refrences it....2nd post: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/off-topic-discussion/miata-vs-z06-corvette/17026/page1/

well.... as this thread has progressed it has gotten more on target as to its subject

no longer interested in FT-86.... seems that is this case here since we are now arguing tC vs C5.....

or is it Si vs tC....

or is it Ford ton and 3/4s vs ???

Wake me when Toyota brings this in....

http://gazoo.com/racing/english/grmn/lineup/frhh.asp

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

dculberson wrote: No joke, $19k for a Scion? I would rather have a C5 'vette any day.

Where are you finding those new at a dealer w/ warranty? This forum is fond of apples to tofu comparisons. (I'd rather have the C5, too.) I believe it's safe to say that nobody is going to cross shop a NEW tC and a USED C5.

Nobody is going to cross shop those, my point is that 99.999% of GRM forum readers aren't going to give a crap how great the $19k Scion tC is. We don't buy expensive slow boring cars!

dculberson wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

dculberson wrote: No joke, $19k for a Scion? I would rather have a C5 'vette any day.

Where are you finding those new at a dealer w/ warranty? This forum is fond of apples to tofu comparisons. (I'd rather have the C5, too.) I believe it's safe to say that nobody is going to cross shop a NEW tC and a USED C5.

Nobody is going to cross shop those, my point is that 99.999% of GRM forum readers aren't going to give a crap how great the $19k Scion tC is. We don't buy expensive slow boring cars!

Yet... we like the Civic Si as a whole. Interesting.

"I like my cars like I like my bread. You see a Camery is like white bread, predictable, safe, you get what you expect every time. A Corvette is like a fruit cake. Your not sure what your going to get, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad, but you know each one is different, and it's going to be nuts." ~ a friend

It didn't make sense to me either till his C5 blew it's trans axle out two days later after doing repeated burnouts.

I think we use "we" an awful lot when an "I" would be more appropriate. Diff'rent strokes, you know?

Tom Heath wrote: I think we use "we" an awful lot when an "I" would be more appropriate. Diff'rent strokes, you know?

Precisely!

I cannot stand the new Si, but it gets recommended and lauded here quite often.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: Why are we arguing about which mid-15 second car is faster? Insert offensive demotivational poster here.

That was the thought I had. I thought this was honda-tech or scionlife for a minute. Had to check the URL.

As to the C5 vette and other cars. Please, they are heavy, slow, and expensive.

I am getting this instead

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote: We are the 0.005% minority here. I HIGHLY doubt that manufacturers really care what we think.

I always disagree with this... without Subaru fanboi's, Subaru would never have gotten to where it is this day and age (and they are behaving just like any other car company, throwing it all away).

In reply to Cotton: I'm curious where you can regularly use that power. I like my cars at WOT and redline... with 300hp in a 3400 lb car, I get to do that ONCE on an onramp. If I went to redline in 2nd gear, I was at 15-over the speedlimit on the freeway (80+). To me, it's just no fun to have to short-shift every single time. Doesn't mean I'm doing 10 under and weaving, it just means that it's no fun for me to drive a car at 3/10s using 3/10s of my driving skill , when I could be abusing a lower-limit car at 9.9/10ths using 5 or 6/10ths of my driving skill.

I don't get why this makes me elitist, I'm not saying high-horsepower cars are lame or that no one else can or should enjoy them, or that I'm somehow better than everyone else only that I, me, personally, have a lot more fun driving something like a 67whp RWD Corolla than I do a 270whp Mustang, and this is relevant to the conversation at hand because I would rather buy a car that had a more accessible limit that I could play with on the street than something I have to get on track.

Basically, this falls under "85mph in an old Bronco is MUCH, MUCH faster than 85mph in a new Corvette."