Another Help Me Decide, Because I'm a Flake, WTF To Do Post

First I've made it as far as the Datsun is staying mostly as is. I've sent the damaged head for the A15 engine to be repaired so I can put the engine back in the car 9there is a 25hp difference between the A12 and A15). After the last practice / track day I realized I enjoy it as is. 

I basically have 3 choices:

1. My Existing F500. I have a hoard of Rotax motors and had intended to convert to the Rotax this summer (20-25hp increase over the current motor) I've also toyed with converting it to a  sports racer configuration with 850cc snowmobile engine. The issue with making this car a faster car is two fold:

                        A. How fast do you want to go in a 73" wheelbase car? It does 130mph now.

                       B.  There is no crush box in the front. The pedals are even with the leading edge of the front tire (it was built in 1987)

 The advantage to the existing F500 is I'm only into it for 6K and I have everything I need to conversion to the Rotax motor. Also of note the car is only legal for vintage and autocross.

2.  Get a newer nicer faster F500. I have a particular car in mind that is both SCCA and vintage legal. The car has just had a major bare frame overhaul and it's a 600cc bike engine car. My results at autocross will be the same, two stroke CVT cars are better for autocross but as this car is newer and has more power it will be a wash. For road racing the car in question will likely be several seconds a lap faster. Buy in for this car will be 10K. I can likely get 5K for my old car and all the stuff. so I'm only talking about 5K outlay.

3. Van Dieman Formula Ford basket case project converted to a sports racer.  Converting the car to a sports racer can be done one of a few ways.

                    A. C-sports racer, simply reassemble the car with the Kent 1600 modified to around 140hp or so. I can probably get this done for 10K                             all in.

                    B.  Bike engined car as C or D sports.  The Kent engine and Hewland box are probably worth 6K, The owner wants 6K for the car so I'd                           be starting out at a $0 dollars. From this would run me about 8K.

                   C.  Formula S  or unclassified sports racer; there are a whole host of modern engines that will put out 200-250hp in what would be a                              1200lb car. The biggest issue here is cost; this would likely go to 20K. while the though of driving another rapid single seater is                                    appealing I'm reluctant to do this because of the outlay (I'm cheap) but the lure of a car that is 20 seconds a lap faster that the                                  F500 I drive now is appealing.

Where I'm currently at is a the newer F500; my current car is scruffy (as have been most of my cars) and at this point in life I just want something nice. While I can afford it 10K is a huge chunk to me for a race car (I've never spent more than $6500 on a car in one go)......but there's the lure of something faster.  Like I said I'm a flake who can't decide.

Can you get some seat time in any of those prospects? Or at least something similar? I'd hate for you to get all ramped up, buy something,  and then not like it even though its faster.

Miata 

Is

Always

The

Answer

;)

In reply to Appleseed :

From 1998 to 2003 I had a D-sports racer; it was very fast, the lap record I set with it was only a second slower than the Trans Am lap record.  From a driving standpoint I loved it.  I hated owning it, between the money and the maintenance I wanted to burn it. A good chunk of the agony was a teething problem that saw us lunch two Yamaha 1000cc engines in a month before we discovered what the issue was. At that point I was done.

F500 has been a fantastic middle ground for the past 7 years but I would be lying if I didn't admit I miss driving the faster car.  If we were just talking autocross I wouldn't be posting as the car is fantastic for that. Typically there are 12 cars in my run group at vintage. Thus far I've managed 9th-10th overall, it is the slowest class of car in the group, the Rotax motor would likely see me snag 7-8th overall.  A newer car would see me get to 5-6 overall. 

A 200hp sports racer we get me into the top two most of the time (on occasion we get F2 and Indy Lights cars). That level of car would be running a stockish automotive power plant. Tires would be the main cost.

amg_rx7 (Forum Supporter) said:

Miata 

Is

Always

The

Answer

;)

I love Miatas; they are the funnest car ever but I also have a thing for formula cars / single seat sports racers. A Exocet comes close but not close enough. An old Formula Ford on vintage race tires is solidly 8-10 seconds a lap faster......and cheaper to race.

125cc shifter kart????

I didn't see anything about why to convert the Van Diemen to a sports racer.  Just fixing it up as a vintage or club formula ford would be easier and the car would actually be faster, I assume.  Of course, I'm a FF guy, so that's what makes sense to me.

pkingham (Forum Supporter) said:

I didn't see anything about why to convert the Van Diemen to a sports racer.  Just fixing it up as a vintage or club formula ford would be easier and the car would actually be faster, I assume.  Of course, I'm a FF guy, so that's what makes sense to me.

 

Simply restoring the Van Dieman to FF spec would indeed be the simplist. Issue with that is a bike engined F500 would be just as fast and have less maintenance.

Fabricating a sports race body is not that difficult; I could even by a Beasley body. Mildly hot rodding the Kent motor is pretty straightforward. All of the Kent performance are readily available.

The car in C-sports Racer trim would be faster that a Formula Ford; between the ability to add down force and the extra 30-40hp.

In reply to lotusseven7 (Forum Supporter) :

You can't vintage race a shifter Kart.......plus for someone as skinny as me they are a beating.

C Sports and D Sports racer (along with Sports 2000) no longer exist in SCCA road racing - I have no idea about various vintage groups.  They were replaced with P1 and P2 and those rules are much different.  I don't think the Kent motor is allowed at all in P2.  In P1, the only spot in the engine list that allows the Kent is the under 2.3 liter group that requires the car to weigh 1475 lb.  At 140 hp you'd be down 60 to 100 hp (at least) and be heavier than all the other options in  P1.  Even the P2 cars that might be in the same run group will be more like 180 hp and 1000 lb.  I'd be worried about getting run over by the other cars.

If you go with the Van Dieman, I'd make it a FF or do a bike engine sports racer in P2.

It kind of seems like you are looking for the speed/safety of a sports racer with the "simplicity" of a F500.  

Does that sound right?

While you had massive growing pains with that D-sports racer, that sure seems like the car you really want.  One the powertrain is fully sorted, you get the speed and simplicity.

Of all of the posts, it also seems that you are trying to avoid racers with car based engines- is that correct?  

My vote is F600. To me it seems like a good "next step" if you're feeling bored with the F500.  Although it's definitely hard to argue with the simplicity of the F500.  A guy I met some years ago convinced me F500 is hard to beat on the cost-benefit ratio if the main goal is to go racing vs. adding another project to the fleet.  I already have projects to last the rest of my life, so if I want to go W2W racing some day, the "project" aspect needs to be kept to a minimum.  At least that is the way I look at it.

Tom1200 said:

In reply to Appleseed :

From 1998 to 2003 I had a D-sports racer; it was very fast, the lap record I set with it was only a second slower than the Trans Am lap record.  From a driving standpoint I loved it.  I hated owning it, between the money and the maintenance I wanted to burn it. A good chunk of the agony was a teething problem that saw us lunch two Yamaha 1000cc engines in a month before we discovered what the issue was. At that point I was done.

F500 has been a fantastic middle ground for the past 7 years but I would be lying if I didn't admit I miss driving the faster car.  If we were just talking autocross I wouldn't be posting as the car is fantastic for that. Typically there are 12 cars in my run group at vintage. Thus far I've managed 9th-10th overall, it is the slowest class of car in the group, the Rotax motor would likely see me snag 7-8th overall.  A newer car would see me get to 5-6 overall. 

A 200hp sports racer we get me into the top two most of the time (on occasion we get F2 and Indy Lights cars). That level of car would be running a stockish automotive power plant. Tires would be the main cost. 

 

I understand sports racers.  I had a Jaguar based Sports racer that I owned for close to 40 years and spent tiny amounts annually vintage racing it. Engine lasted forever. Basic stock bottom end except for 13-1 pistons.   brake pads lasted seasons, tires too ( they aged out rather than wore out).   
I was always a little nervous in Open wheel race cars especially tight wheel to wheel dicing which is what I love to do.  
    My recommendation is to get the biggest production based engine you can in a sports racer. Find something that engines are readily available. Have one spare engine and 1 spare gearbox ready to go. ( that's the best way I know to never need to use them). 
     I'm the kind of guy who would trace down all the Formula 5000 cars that were converted to Can Am. But that's just me.  
 Maybe go older than you are comfortable with?  Alfa powered C or B sports racer?  
 

A little advice on how to find real bargains in that kind of car.  Don't look for Ads.  Chase down inactive cars.  Talk to former Club secretaries  and ask if they can send to old entrant lists.  Every club has a few people who keep records and  entry lists.  You might have to attend a couple of club meetings and ask around. Then when you find it, It may need refreshing, overhaul or a complete restoration. Keep that in mind when you make your offer.  
   Your ultimate Ace in the hole is offer to let the former owner see it on the track.   Or even let him run in the noon parade with it. 
     

In reply to Kubotai :

This would be for vintage; I have a cousin that runs SCCA P2 and so I'm very familiar with the class and the expense. P2 would be a no go. A decent used car is 30K and a competitive one is at least 45K.

As for the 140hp that's at the wheels; that's 10-15 more than a  Sports 2000 puts out at the wheels. Note sports 2000s are very popular at vintage races in the wings and slicks group. 

alfadriver said:

It kind of seems like you are looking for the speed/safety of a sports racer with the "simplicity" of a F500.  

Does that sound right?

While you had massive growing pains with that D-sports racer, that sure seems like the car you really want.  One the powertrain is fully sorted, you get the speed and simplicity.

Of all of the posts, it also seems that you are trying to avoid racers with car based engines- is that correct?  

This pretty much hits the nail on the head.

I'm not opposed automotive based engines but I don't want something with 6hr rebuild intervals.  My race engine (if you could call it that) in the Datsun will do 5 seasons, which equates to 75hrs. My back up motor for that car will do 10 seasons between rebuilds. They are basically built to about 75% of a full race engine. 

The figure I quoted for the Kent engine is pretty much what they'll do in fast road or rally trim. 

The F500 I run now has needed a bit more maintenance engine wise but it's a two stroke so putting a fresh top end can be done without pulling the engine. The Rotax engine is supposed to do around 18hrs on a set of rings, for me this means doing a top end once a year at most, again as the engine doesn't have to come out it's not a big deal.

Ian F (Forum Supporter) said:

My vote is F600. To me it seems like a good "next step" if you're feeling bored with the F500.  Although it's definitely hard to argue with the simplicity of the F500.  A guy I met some years ago convinced me F500 is hard to beat on the cost-benefit ratio if the main goal is to go racing vs. adding another project to the fleet.  

The Rotax engine in my existing car will see my lap times decrease by 4-5 seconds; the newer bike engined car will be another 3-4 seconds beyond that, maybe more. 

The C or D sports racer will be another 10 seconds a lap faster than the F600. The only reservation on my part is the maintenance; while I'll whine about the extra $200-$300 or so the race weekend costs me I only do 3 vintage race weekends a year so the increase isn't much. The PCA track days will be the same cost wise as I'd run old tires for those.............because I don't care about ultimate lap times at track days.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I get some of the CSR maintenance issues being car engines.  But if you put a Rotax into a D-SR, is there still more maintenance for it?  

I may be getting this wrong, but in terms of the chassis, the big difference between a F500 and a sports racer is the suspension design- which is more complex on the SR- is that a huge burden?

So the big issue with the DSR would be to find a powertrain that has reasonable amount of work to keep it running.  Right?

Let me see if I've got this roughly correct:

F500 = slowest, least safe, more limited classing, low project effort, and no cost.

F600 = faster, more safe, less limited classing, no project effort, and low cost.

FF SR = faster, more safe, more limtied classing, med project effort, and low cost.

BEC SR = faster still, more safe, more limited classing, high project effort, and med cost.

CEC SR = fastest, more safe, more limited classing, high project effort, and high cost.

For me personally, F600 seems to check the most boxes.

F600. You can always fill that "no project effort" with something, on or off that car.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I get some of the CSR maintenance issues being car engines.  But if you put a Rotax into a D-SR, is there still more maintenance for it?  

I may be getting this wrong, but in terms of the chassis, the big difference between a F500 and a sports racer is the suspension design- which is more complex on the SR- is that a huge burden?

So the big issue with the DSR would be to find a powertrain that has reasonable amount of work to keep it running.  Right?

We have floated the idea of an 850CC snowmobile engine in the back of the Van Dieman chassis; These are good for 160-175hp.

The suspension isn't a huge burden on the SR as we're talking 4 dampers that are serviceable. I don't need fancy Ohlins and the like for the project.

If you don't get crazy with the power level from the FF engine than the LD200 Hewland box will go a long time without service.

The big thing that made F500 / F600 appealing for me was the fact that you can buy all of your service items from Mcmaster Carr; the rubber donuts come in sheets and you use a hole saw to make up new ones, the friction discs you simply cut out of a sheet of plastic. the only thing I've had to do to the clutches is shim the belt clearance (once in 7 years). I've had to replace a $30 belt. The bike engined guys are getting several seasons out of the engines. Basically I clean the car and double check the nuts and bolts..............that's it.

Switching from a car that needs little to something faster but requiring more time is were I lock up / short circuit...........the heart wants to go faster but the head doesn't follow.

I've done a spreadsheet on a budget CSR and it comes in at just over 10K all in; a faster version is pushing 13K in parts (including the 6K for the car) and I expected the complete car to run me around 20K.

In reply to Driven5 :

Yes, that is pretty succinct.

Tom1200 said:

alfadriver said:

It kind of seems like you are looking for the speed/safety of a sports racer with the "simplicity" of a F500.  

Does that sound right?

While you had massive growing pains with that D-sports racer, that sure seems like the car you really want.  One the powertrain is fully sorted, you get the speed and simplicity.

Of all of the posts, it also seems that you are trying to avoid racers with car based engines- is that correct?  

This pretty much hits the nail on the head.

I'm not opposed automotive based engines but I don't want something with 6hr rebuild intervals.  My race engine (if you could call it that) in the Datsun will do 5 seasons, which equates to 75hrs. My back up motor for that car will do 10 seasons between rebuilds. They are basically built to about 75% of a full race engine. 

The figure I quoted for the Kent engine is pretty much what they'll do in fast road or rally trim. 

The F500 I run now has needed a bit more maintenance engine wise but it's a two stroke so putting a fresh top end can be done without pulling the engine. The Rotax engine is supposed to do around 18hrs on a set of rings, for me this means doing a top end once a year at most, again as the engine doesn't have to come out it's not a big deal.

The reason I suggest production engine is unmodified they go more than 100000 miles even flat out. Mild ( read as in cheap and easy ) modifications will get you many decades with nothing more than oil changes. 
     Motorcycle, snowmobile, stock limit you to about 20,000 and maybe I'm being overly generous.  So at least  5-1 more longevity.      
    Now vintage eligible automotive engines will be heavier and bulkier than snowmobile or motorcycle.  

In reply to Tom1200 :

One other thing- you also seem to prefer a sports racer over the open wheeled equivalent.  So IF you chose an FF sports racer- what class would that be in?  And would it be fast enough?

BTW, I'm asking questions as I honestly have no idea what would be best- just asking the questions that come to mind hoping that it helps you answer your own question.  Last time I raced was a decade ago, and my racecar was sold about 5 years ago now- and I know it made it on the track when I was not able to do that.

alfadriver said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

One other thing- you also seem to prefer a sports racer over the open wheeled equivalent.  So IF you chose an FF sports racer- what class would that be in?  And would it be fast enough?

BTW, I'm asking questions as I honestly have no idea what would be best- just asking the questions that come to mind hoping that it helps you answer your own question.  Last time I raced was a decade ago, and my racecar was sold about 5 years ago now- and I know it made it on the track when I was not able to do that.

So if you slap a sports racer body on a FF it instantly becomes a CSR (note CSR is now SCCA P1). For vintage it would be fine.

Would it be fast enough is the overriding question.

After reading all of the responses I think my choices are budget CSR OR just buying  said F600.  The budget CSR would be a bit faster than the F600. 

In reply to Tom1200 :

Just curious what problems you experienced with the 1000cc Yamaha engines, and what series engine.

I ran a FZR1000.