I might suggest reading the Midlana build blog and buy the build book. He goes through quite a lot discussion around using the Miata uprights, steering rack and building his own control arms using off the shelf parts and solutions.
Combined with the Carroll Smith books and similar titles, one should be able to using it as a jumping off point towards a single seat solution without reinventing the wheel.
alfadriver said:In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Re: #16- are you making a Clubman car or a mid engined transaxle car? Most of the notes seemed like the cars pictured in this thread, but #16 with the engine on the right makes me ask. Or do you expect that your donor will be that biased to one side?
In terms of the front suspension, while it totally makes sense to use a Miata upright (rear works too, I bet)- the actual arms would have to me more like what Keith wrote up in his Miata based Locost book. And if you don't want to make them- the arms are available from circle track suppliers for good prices. Shocks, too.
In this thread I'm only talking mid engine single seater transverse cars. Every pic so far except one, which I count and #18, are the same type of car. Pic #18 has one single seater of the same type with body work removed and three other sports cars of some type I don't know
For Inspiration, have you taken a look at the Nemesis, made by Superlite Cars:
http://www.superlitecars.com/nemesis
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Just wanted to make sure.
In terms of the chassis- between reading the Midlandia build and all the chassis pictures you have- seems like that part should be reasonably straight forward.
Some questions- rear bulkhead is easy- it's your back, and the engine is right there. Where do you picture the front one would be relative to the axle CL? That's where you mount the Masters, or course. Depending on where you locate it, it can really help stiffen the front suspension structure.
But if I were reading the tea leaves right- you need to 1) choose powertrain. That will define the rear axle location all the way to the rear bulkhead. 2) using your rough ratios, that should give you an idea where the front suspension ends up. And then, how you want to sit in the chassis will be interesting to see the options. That is pretty much the bulk of how your car will look. Then it's down to the details.
mainlandboy said:For Inspiration, have you taken a look at the Nemesis, made by Superlite Cars:
http://www.superlitecars.com/nemesis
Odd, I was writing my response when it just vanished. Lets try again.
Yup, I'm aware of this, It's undoubtedly better than anything I could build and certainly better looking, but it has two issues.
First, If I ever get a pure 'race' car I want to build it, just because it's been a dream of mine for well over 30 years now. I freely admit that the chances of me starting, let alone finishing a project like this are very slim, but it would have to be mine through and through.
Second and more importantly I am unusual in that bike engined cars just don't hit my buttons, I think the upsides are way over sold and the down sides ignored by typical internet lore. I used to obsessively follow a number of bike engine race car blogs based in the UK, plus various road going bike engined '7' clones as well. Bike engines just don't seem to hold up in real life as the internet implies. There are various bike engined kit car series where the all up weight with driver and fluids is less than 1,000lb's. It seems that changing clutches or engines several times a year is just part of racing. Also people seem to have endless oiling issues etc. The one exception to my personal no bike engine bias would be 500cc single seaters like OMS, Jedi etc. These things weigh less than 400lb's without driver and that seems to be the point where they can live a decent time without being overstressed. But a 200lb+ lard arse like me isn't ideal for a car that small. Also I wouldn't want to hit something in a car that small. Most (but not all) UK hillclimbs are purpose built or modified and have far more run off and safety than US hillclimbs that tend to use closed public roads and have stone walls, trees and Armco 6" off the track.
I usually don't self-promote but what about www.midlana.com doesn't get you what you want? It uses whatever 4-6 cylinder you want, has an integral roll-cage, has designs for both inboard and outboard suspension - your choice, and Miata uprights and rack. The car is a two-seater designed for road use , but could easily be changed to a single-seater: move seating to the center, and put the dry-sump tank up front. The rear of the car has to stay as wide as it is already in order to contain the drivetrain, so no changes are needed at that end. As far as whether it's a "real" race car, the only difference is the lights. The design is proven; mine has a 400-500 hp turbo Acura drivetrain in it, so it can handle whatever you want.
Regarding suspension arms, I guess I don't understand the concern. They're just steel tubes, just like the rest of the car. Any concern for them should also apply to every other tube in the car as well, as they're all just as important to getting around the next corner.
If that's not your thing, fair enough. When I was as the SCCA runoffs several years ago I saw the "SRF" cars which might suit you better:
kb58 said:I usually don't self-promote but what about www.midlana.com doesn't get you what you want? It uses whatever 4-6 cylinder you want, has an integral roll-cage, has designs for both inboard and outboard suspension - your choice, and Miata uprights and rack. The car is a two-seater designed for road use , but could easily be changed to a single-seater: move seating to the center, and put the dry-sump tank up front. The rear of the car has to stay as wide as it is already in order to contain the drivetrain, so no changes are needed at that end. As far as whether it's a "real" race car, the only difference is the lights. The design is proven; mine has a 400-500 hp turbo Acura drivetrain in it, so it can handle whatever you want.
Regarding suspension arms, I guess I don't understand the concern. They're just steel tubes, just like the rest of the car. Any concern for them should also apply to every other tube in the car as well, as they're all just as important to getting around the next corner.
If that's not your thing, fair enough. When I was as the SCCA runoffs several years ago I saw the "SRF" cars which might suit you better:
Thanks for replying. I followed the original Kimini build right from the start of your original blog, when was that? Around the turn of the century I think. Funnily enough I looked up the Kimini book on Amazon last night and laughed, there was a used copy for over $7,000!! I just went back to screen shot it, but used now seems to be from $19.98 so it must have been some kind of automated pricing glitch that self corrected. I didn’t see the Kimi book on your Midlana site so I ordered one off Amazon (not for $7K though)
What are the basic dimensions and weight of Midlana, I didn’t think of it as I see it as a mid engine se7en esc vehicle rather than a pure race car. At 96” the wheelbase is longer than I would be looking for. What is the finished weight? I’m not being critical. Your skill, patience and abilities are way beyond mine which is why I keep saying this is as much more a mental excersise for fun as it likely to happen.
I don’t recall mentioning any concern about control arms, unless there was something in my old cut and paste. Someone else did mention circle track parts, but my assumption is that, although dirt cheap, they will not be available in appropriate lengths/attachment size etc. as well as being too heavy and designed for GM style ball joints which I haven’t checked the taper on, but probably don’t suit the Miata taper. If/When it happens my plan would be to MIG the chassis at home on a build table, but control arms I’d build a jig, cut, fit etc. at home but sign up for a community collage welding class with access to TIG and an instructor. They’d also be one of the later parts fully welded as I only have gas and MIG experience and I’ve don’t nothing more than little jobs for 25 years now. Back in the early 90’s I did rebuild one shell from two crashed one and was (note past tense) a pretty good welder, but I’m very very rusty and my welding gear was left in the UK. All I have here is a little old 110V Craftsman unit, at least it’s not flux core! I only see that as up to tacking things together, not full/finish welding.
Yup, I’m very familiar with Spec Racers. Same basic layout that I’m considering but at 1700lb’s they are built like tanks, here’s the chassis. Obviously designed for 30 plus very hard years of full contact racing. Truth is it's probably a great way to go.
Final weight depends upon you, the chassis tube material, and the drivetrain. Total weight ends up anywhere between 1500-1900 lbs with driver. Being Lotus-ish means it's draggy, but dropping a shell over it can fix that. It really comes down to how much of the work you want to do yourself. Money-wise, it's probably best to buy a used race car, but unless it's completely rebuilt, you're never really sure about its integrity. For me, the journey is as much fun as the destination, but I like building stuff, making everything exactly the way I want. But, if you're intent is to race and not spend time in the garage, I agree that buying one of the cars in this thread makes sense.
Adrian_Thompson said:
Second and more importantly I am unusual in that bike engined cars just don't hit my buttons, I think the upsides are way over sold and the down sides ignored by typical internet lore.
From the description on the webpage that I linked:
"Powered by the powerful and inexpensive VW/Audi 1.8 or 2.0 turbocharged engines..."
mainlandboy said:From the description on the webpage that I linked:
"Powered by the powerful and inexpensive VW/Audi 1.8 or 2.0 turbocharged engines..."
Well bugger me sideways (actualy, no please don't)
I have to admit I looked but didn't read. This shot made me think BEC
I mentioned Terrapins in the first posts. Some people are obviously aware of what they are and the book 'High speed low cost' that I mentioned, but here's some pics so people know more what I'm talking about.
Looking at all the car choices, you are just suggesting a much narrower Midlandia, or a slightly narrower (and simpler) Spec Racer. Neither of which are overly complex desings. Both of which, you could integrate your own suspension design onto.
BTW, don't dismiss the circle track part supplies. Your assumptions may mean you miss a very good supplier of reasonably priced parts that are strong enough to race on circle tracks around this country. They have coil over systems, they have suspension arms w/o ball joints, they have narrow steering racks, they have really inexpensive springs, etc.
And it would be interesting to see if there really is a difference in OEM's in terms of the tapered joints they all use. I suspect they are not all that different.
In reply to alfadriver :
Excellent point on circle track parts.
ball joint tapers generally fall into a 7degree or 10degree category. Both are common and available in replacable/rebuildable designs.
Adrian_Thompson said:mainlandboy said:From the description on the webpage that I linked:
"Powered by the powerful and inexpensive VW/Audi 1.8 or 2.0 turbocharged engines..."
Well bugger me sideways (actualy, no please don't)
I have to admit I looked but didn't read. This shot made me think BEC
I agree, something looks odd with this picture. The website is lacking in enough solid information for my tastes. I did see this in the FAQ section:
I want to use a Neon, or Mitsubishi or Cobalt or other engine. Will it fit?
Probably. But the factory only supports the VW/Audi drivetrain that uses an inline 4 or VR6 engine with the 01x longitudinal transaxle."
...but that doesn't explain the chain drive as the longitudinal transaxle would have the axles directly into the transmission. While it's a thing to bag on VAG/Bosch electronics, the actual 1.8T engine is pretty stout and will easily put out some serious HP. The 01X transmission isn't all that common in the US. It was only used on FWD VW Passats and Audi A4's (the B5 platform), the latter of which were usually ordered with AWD. The advantage is the narrow layout should allow equal length half-shafts and the potential for a better rear suspension design (long control arms), The disadvantage towards some of your criteria may be the length when attached to the engine, which after you place the cockpit ahead of it and account for the front axle being ahead of the toe box (generally required if you want to do TT and HC events).
It's not that I think this is a bad idea, but it's just that it's not a new idea and I get the feeling you are glossing over some of the details that have prevented this idea from being more common.
I suggest smart 3 cylinder and 5 speed trans. Already at the correct end. Makes 70 HP and you can make more. Factory car is 1800 lbs, so a formula type car would be less. Plus de Dion rear for cool factor. No seriously I have wanted to do this since my wife got her 08 and I wrecked an FV for a friend. Tires sizes are perfect too.
Interesting idea, I like the compactness of the power train, but I'd really like to start with something that has at least 110hp.
So, change of tack. What powertrain donors can people think of? Let's assume something available for $250 here in the rust belt. For once rust isn't an issue int he body, but it would have to be something that's a good solid runner.
The obvious ones I think of are Ford or Mazda B6 or BP vehicles. Solid known engines that run forever. Relatively small and compact so they aren't too wide. Track width suitable so stock drive shafts will work and 4x100 bolt pattern . LSD available. This includes Mazda 323, Ford Escort GT, Mercury Tracer (tough with manual) and the odd ball Mercury XR2.
Ford Focus. Millions rusting away up here. Solid engine if a bit heavy. I have lot's of familiarity with them. A bit wider, but OK but 4x108 bolt patterns and I don't' know if 13" wheels would fit over the stock brakes.
AW11 MR2. Rare these days, but just about perfect. Not sure if I can think of a better base TBH
Various Honda's. Lot's of engine choices and swapping is like Lego, I just don't know the alphabet soup of Honda engines and what is good or bad etc.
Thoughts?
Doing some more digging around on powertrains. Here's a shocker. I was looking for dressed engine weights and inevitably figures are all over the place, but it looks like, according to the all knowing internet, that the 1.6/1.8L Mazda B6/BP engines are heavier than the 2.0L Ford Zetec.
I see dressed weights for B6 circa 275-280lb's with BP 10-20lb's heavier
I see dressed weights for the 2.0L Zetec circa 255-270lb's.
Now, I don't take any of these as gosple, but the trend over several sights and timeframes suggests that the Zetec is lighter. Considering the B6 Block is physicalyshorter (lengthways) than the BP with closer bore spacing I assumed that is was a small, efficient block. Perhaps not. I guess casting technology and modeling came a long way in the decade between the two engines being built.
In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Given the number of Ztecs out there, should be an easy find. Heck, even the SVT Focus would be good. And they are cheap.
Adrian_Thompson said:Ford Focus. Millions rusting away up here. Solid engine if a bit heavy. I have lot's of familiarity with them. A bit wider, but OK but 4x108 bolt patterns and I don't' know if 13" wheels would fit over the stock brakes.
4x108 is not much of a problem, Numerous makes(such as Volvo) used that pattern. 13" wheels are a no go. Stock brakes require 14" wheels. SVT disk brakes need a 16" wheel but there are some (Kosei K1) that will fit in 15" versions.
Hal said:Adrian_Thompson said:Ford Focus. Millions rusting away up here. Solid engine if a bit heavy. I have lot's of familiarity with them. A bit wider, but OK but 4x108 bolt patterns and I don't' know if 13" wheels would fit over the stock brakes.
4x108 is not much of a problem, Numerous makes(such as Volvo) used that pattern. 13" wheels are a no go. Stock brakes require 14" wheels. SVT disk brakes need a 16" wheel but there are some (Kosei K1) that will fit in 15" versions.
Escort ZX2 have the Zetec engine with 4x100?
I've been thinking about this for a while, too. I fantasize about a GRM "Run Whatcha Brung" version of this concept... Wouldn't take much to make a two seat endurance car version, either.
alfadriver said:In reply to Adrian_Thompson :
Given the number of Ztecs out there, should be an easy find. Heck, even the SVT Focus would be good. And they are cheap.
I'm not as keen on the SVT for a couple of reasons. First assuming I'd start with a complete car, it comes with the Getrag 6 speed and duel mass flywheel. The six speed rations aren't great and it's heavier and the duel mass flywheel is a PIA. Also there are fewer easy tuning parts for the SVT engine than the base. Secondly I happen to know where the's are engine and trans that came out of a 2001 Focus wagon which already has an LSD, a Jackson racing supercharger and Ford Performance head plus some other things on it sitting in a friends garage. Not sure how many $'s he wants for it though.
stroker said:I've been thinking about this for a while, too. I fantasize about a GRM "Run Whatcha Brung" version of this concept... Wouldn't take much to make a two seat endurance car version, either.
For years I've advocated the idea of a run what ya brung for the challenge, but each time I do I get told that's what the UTCC is for. I hope your idea gets beyond the endless dreaming and talking about it mine has done for the last 30 years though!!!! Good luck
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