As with so many of us, in my earlier years it was all about power: How much engine could I stuff into how little of a chassis? It was all in a quest to see how fast I could go.
At one time, a flyweight Triumph Spitfire with a 240-horsepower rotary that would hit 60 in about 4 seconds sounded …
False dichotomy.
Fast car fast :)
Slow car fast.
benclear said:I don't understand how racing a slow car fast could possibly be beneficial, but I am new to racing.
I'm not sure if this is what Tim was intending, but one way to interpret the question has to do with the structure of most club racing groups. SCCA, NASA, etc, we usually have way more classes than we do groups, so each race group is made up of multiple classes. The org tries to be smart about how they do the grouping and put similar cars together, but sometimes (especially in endurance racing) there can be some pretty big speed disparities between classes.
So if you were racing the NASA 25 hours of Thunderhill, would you rather be driving a Spec Miata or one of the sports racer/prototypes? Getting passed 5-10 times per lap, or passing other cars a similar amount? Is it better to be in the Miata that's leading the E3 class, or a prototype that's further down the field in its class but much higher in overall position than the Miata?
Yes.
JG Pasterjak said:False dichotomy.
Fast car fast :)
I whole heartedly disagree see the long winded post that follows this one.
Well, My track car is a 2100LB 150HP car in the V8 dominated track day scene of the Midwest so you know where my vote is.
I drive a slow car slow lol. I autocross a MK4 GTI in STH...I give away a lot of HP to the others in my class...and my car is chubby. But I'm grinning at the end of each run. I say drive whatever you have, as fast as you can and laugh the entire way!
I been on both sides of this one. Time trials back in the day I had the right car in FSP with a ACR neon. I had a blast driving that car and it was much faster than anything in the class at the time. I am currently running all the autox I can in a Chevy Sonic so I am in what is by far the slowest car (probably in any class). I ran all this season in HS against Fiesta Sts, Fiat 500s, and Honda Civic sports. So the Fiestas I've heard are rated at 197hp against my 138. The Fiat is 160hp and the Civics are at like 160 from what I hear. I had a absolute blast mixing it up with those guys but have now moved on to STH and will probably end up in SMF. Again in these classes I'm way way down on everything compared to the other cars but it's fun still running the same times they do in a slow car so I vote slow car fast.
While I'm best known for slow car fast I have driven a fast cars fast.
It's been 20 years since I campaigned it but our D-Sports Racer (now SCCA P2) was a very fast car. The class lap record I set with it was only a second off Mike Lewis' ex Roush Trans-Am car and roughly the same off the Formula Mazda record set by one of the Pro Mazda series front runners.
The car was exhilarating to drive but here's the rub; I know that I am a better than average club racer and the car was fast, so anything less than a lap record would be underperforming. If you finish down the order (regardless of the reason) it's a disappointment. Driving the car on the limit was effortless and lapping slower cars was child's play.
Now juxtapose that against my 80 wheel horsepower Datsun; you have to drive every inch of every lap like a fiend and constantly adjust to milk ever RPM out of it. You have to plan 1/2 a lap ahead. In the Datsun once you turn into the corner, if you aren't a passenger all the way to the exit you're simply not trying hard enough. You have to borderline overdrive the car to be fast.
Dragging the Datsun up the overall finishing order is hugely satisfying. Having competitors come up to you and say "you get every once out of that car" adds to that satisfaction.
In slow car if you do get it the slightest bit wrong it's immediately obvious. When you're only getting 90% out of a slow car is painfully obvious whereas in a fast car 90% of it's potential may well be fast enough to win.
If you're in a fast car and go fast it's expected...............I like the thrill of surpassing expectations with a slow car.
Tom1200 said:If you're in a fast car and go fast it's expected...............I like the thrill of surpassing expectations with a slow car.
All the things you say about the Datsun are also true about the DSR if you're racing other people who are also in DSRs.
Slow car fast!
PlutoE210 said:Slow car fast!
Rachel gets it!
I just liked being on track and racing. The car was not so important. What was important was having a competitor of similar skill and performance to race with. I will say that I was always better at driving higher HP cars than momentum cars.
From a care a feeding standpoint the slower cars were always easier and cheeper to maintain.
c) race every car as fast as it can go.
IMO if you're racing a fast car in a slow class, you're not really racing. Slow car in a fast class is more like racing, but not entirely racing.
But in the context of the OP, I think there's more subtlety than that. In vintage racing, in similarly classed cars running similarly timed laps, some have more power and less cornering speed and some have less power and more cornering speed. If this is the real question- then I have more experience with less power and more cornering speed, but I've always wanted to try a bruiser that doesn't corner as well. I think it would be fun and force me to learn new skills.
I think Tim's question could be re-stated like this...
Which would you choose:
1. Build a car for a slower class but build it to the limit of the rules, have enough budget for tires and compete for class wins,
or
2. Build for a faster class but be unable to build to the limit of the rules, be forced to compromise on tires, and go fast but not be in contention for a podium.
Car 2 is faster than car 1 at the same budget. Car 1 can get class wins, car 2 cannot.
Tom1200 said:While I'm best known for slow car fast I have driven a fast cars fast.
It's been 20 years since I campaigned it but our D-Sports Racer (now SCCA P2) was a very fast car. The class lap record I set with it was only a second off Mike Lewis' ex Roush Trans-Am car and roughly the same off the Formula Mazda record set by one of the Pro Mazda series front runners.
The car was exhilarating to drive but here's the rub; I know that I am a better than average club racer and the car was fast, so anything less than a lap record would be underperforming. If you finish down the order (regardless of the reason) it's a disappointment. Driving the car on the limit was effortless and lapping slower cars was child's play.
Now juxtapose that against my 80 wheel horsepower Datsun; you have to drive every inch of every lap like a fiend and constantly adjust to milk ever RPM out of it. You have to plan 1/2 a lap ahead. In the Datsun once you turn into the corner, if you aren't a passenger all the way to the exit you're simply not trying hard enough. You have to borderline overdrive the car to be fast.
Dragging the Datsun up the overall finishing order is hugely satisfying. Having competitors come up to you and say "you get every once out of that car" adds to that satisfaction.
In slow car if you do get it the slightest bit wrong it's immediately obvious. When you're only getting 90% out of a slow car is painfully obvious whereas in a fast car 90% of it's potential may well be fast enough to win.
If you're in a fast car and go fast it's expected...............I like the thrill of surpassing expectations with a slow car.
I've read things like this before but I think it only really applies if you're the only person driving a fast car in your race or run group. Like if you're the only person driving a Mod class car in your autocross region, you can get away with running 90% and collecting all the FTDs. Similar story if your vintage racer is an overdog for its run group. Winning easily isn't that fun, I got it. But that's really more of a classing/region thing than a car thing. You could build a better Spec Miata than anybody else in your area and win the same way in a slow class. But once everybody you're racing with has a fast car, don't you have to maximize everything just as much as you do in the Datsun to be competitive? I don't think the top drivers in TA2, or IMSA, or Indycar, or autocross in the Mod Classes at nationals are driving any less hard or having their mistakes covered up by the car anymore than the dudes running Bspec or MX5 Cup. Just because you have 800hp doesn't mean you don't need to maximize everything in the twisty bits to run the best lap times.
codrus (Forum Supporter) said:Tom1200 said:If you're in a fast car and go fast it's expected...............I like the thrill of surpassing expectations with a slow car.
All the things you say about the Datsun are also true about the DSR if you're racing other people who are also in DSRs.
Having wrung every last ounce out of said DSR I'd disagree with that. I will try to articulate the difference but likely fail.........note this will be wordy.
Best examples I can give:
The weekend I set the DSR lap record there were 5 other fast cars there I ended up 2nd overall (23 cars) & 1st in class. I drove my heart out; a DSR is a scalpel and you know exactly where it is going even at 10/10ths. You also know in an instant if you're going off track.
Contrast that with by last vintage race weekend with the Datsun at Buttonwillow we ran 25 CCW. Sunday qualifying was full send in multiple places.
In the brake zone for Star Mazda the car was still snaking around wildly as I turned in (the corner worked even mentioned it) once I turned in I was waiting to see if the car either lost the back or bounced over the kerb on the exit.
Going over Phil Hill the the car 4 wheel drifted from the crest to the exit curb and I'll I could do was see if the curb caught the car. Despite they're being a question mark I stayed in the gas.
On the exit of Riverside I actually hung the outer half inch of the tires in the dirt and simply waited to see if it spun. Also in Riverside you keep the throttle pinned and saw at the wheel; what you would gain with a slight lift mid corner can't be recovered because the motor can't build revs fast enough to recover from the slight lift........this is the weirdness of ultra momentum cars.
Grapevine and Off Ramp and the final corner were a repeat of Phil Hill........simply waiting to see if the kerb caught the car.
With a fast car you don't need all off the antics the Datsun requires. The Datsun is like trying to ride a bicycle down an icy hill as fast as you dare.
CrashDummy said:I don't think the top drivers in TA2, or IMSA, or Indycar, or autocross in the Mod Classes at nationals are driving any less hard or having their mistakes covered up by the car anymore than the dudes running Bspec or MX5 Cup. Just because you have 800hp doesn't mean you don't need to maximize everything in the twisty bits to run the best lap times.
True but the "antics" one sees in the lower horsepower classes aren't required in 800hp cars. If you want a glaring example watch a Moto3 race; there are idiosyncrasies to momentum cars/bikes that horsepower cars/bikes don't require.
Note I'm keenly aware that drivers in IMSA, Indycar & 24hrs LeMans etc. are full send the entire time.
Also note I've driven everything from a 60hp FV to 800hp sedan.
Having autocrossed my daily driver (the badass 2013 sonata turbo se - said with tongue in cheek humor) i cannot say it's fast per se. Yet I wish I had a bit less power (275hp rated) to have fun with. Would be easier to learn the proper line i believe with a bit less ommph.
Anyhow, my answer is better to drive a slow car fast.
Zombie thread rises from the dead.
ddavidv said:Zombie thread rises from the dead.
Resurrect a zombie thread slow or fast??
Slow car fast. :)
Even though it's a zombie thread, I've only had slow cars on track.
But it's always fun to get a point by from a car with 500hp when you're in a Miata.
For the purpose of this thread, "slow car fast."
For the purpose of a race, "fast car fast."
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