of course you could lend one to the Hamster and have him turn it into a fireball. Doesn't seem to hurt the brand he's driving or himself...too much. 
of course you could lend one to the Hamster and have him turn it into a fireball. Doesn't seem to hurt the brand he's driving or himself...too much.
Keith Tanner said:The TVR is much closer and a more legitimate competitor in price, packaging and concept. So how do I get people to consider them as alternatives? Can we get beyond the "just a motor swap" concept from the public?
It's got to be tough entering into a subset of a very niche market. Even if they do decide to sell the TVR here I can't imagine more than a handful or two of sales.
So let's take the swapped concept out of the equation for a minute and look at the differences.
Not knowing about this new TVR but going off of history. The Griffith is likely to be raw, possibly ill handling at the limit but with very high limits, potentially fragile and unreliable and more likely to be used for cars and coffee more so than track days. And very sparingly for that. A TVR is an exciting car that people hope is good.
You've got a car that is refined, composed all the time and predictable. reliable and just as much at home at a tack day. Tearing up a favorite backroad. Dropping your favorite kid off at school and stealing a lot of attention at the cars and coffee from those that know. A car that can be driven daily. You've got a good car that can be exciting.
You're looking for someone who want's an ultra competent sleeper that has the ability to perform time and time again.
TVRs appeal to someone who wants to show off and has the performance to back it up. But mainly show off and are willing to put up with a less refined/reliable package.
I just the think the two cars appeal to two different types of person. I don't think the concepts are as close as you think they are aside from being RWD V8 sports cars. I'm not sure you would or could steal any sales from TVR so I would focus on the strengths of your car and the types of people that it appeals to.
Now I could be wrong and this new Griffith could be a legitimate good car in which case they compare much better. Good cars that are exciting is a lot different than exciting cars that are this close to being good.
Could you get away with a "race trim" V8 ND? Stripped interior, cage, splitter, diffuser, and giant ugly wing, with a price right around $100k? Or maybe regular interior and roll bar would be better than a full stripper for sales, cages suck on the street.
I'm clearly not the target market for such a thing, but I wonder if you made a v8 miata that looked more like it came off a trailer at the track instead of fresh out of the showroom the people shopping TVRs and other 6 figure "stand out" cars would have more interest.
Kind of a shame you couldn't V8 a catfish, I think that would be a worthy opponent for this Griffith or Griffin or whatever it's called.
Of all the V8 cars we've built of all generations, only one is a pure track car (not counting my own). It's a successful one, too - it's won a bunch of enduro championships. All the others are fast street cars. Cars comissioned instead of 911s or FFR Roadsters. Cobras that don't suck. That's not really surprising, take a look at just about any sports car and you'll see the ratio of street to track-focused is heavily in favor of street. Just look at the 911 - the Carrera outsells the GT3 handily. The sales ratio between the GT3 and the GT3 RS is interesting, the latter used to be the lower volume option but now outsells the boring GT3.
I am actually putting together an internal proposal for an FM shop car that would aim more at the Alfaholics concept - call it the GT3 variant, with more of a track focus but maintaining a full interior. I want to wrap the roll protection in leather and come up with a fixed version of the RF roof. Probably some bodywork for visual aggression and the fattest tires I can stuff underneath. But I have to come up with a justification for destroying our marketing budget I do have a potential high-visibility SEMA spot for it.
I think the TVR would get cross-shopped to one of our cars. There's the obvious similarity in specs - there just aren't any other 500 hp roadsters under 3000 lbs at any price, really - but both also appeal to people who want something different. Chevrolet will sell far more ZR1 Corvettes than TVR will sell anything, and people choosing a Habu (the name for our cars, which you're going to start seeing a lot more of) are looking for that same unusual sort of choice. This is why the TVR and the market reaction to it interest me so much. Another interesting comparison is the Jaguar F-Type, which makes our car look like a massive bargain and outweighs it by 1000 lbs.
And yes, you can V8 a Catfish. I'm not sure it's been done yet, but it's heavily related to a Miata under the skin. I know there's a V6 one that's either under construction or finished, and I think the more exotic sound of a V6 would suit the character of the car better. But the Catfish is very clearly a kit car. Heck, it doesn't have doors, a roof or any sort of storage and the cockpit is basically a box. Way different from the TVR. If the TVR came to market in that form, it'll be a sales disaster regardless of the history behind the name.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I would say the best way to sell your cars is to go endurance racing and win. My guess the mid level events would probably be your best bang for the buck and give you lots of opportunities to talk to real potential customers.
I would also put together a subtle aero package exclusive to your cars and call it something cool. You look at automakers and that’s basically their approach to selling their top of the line performance versions. But winning races and letting the world know will be the fastest way to change the perception of your cars and mans them “fiz”.
Keith Tanner said:I am actually putting together an internal proposal for an FM shop car that would aim more at the Alfaholics concept - call it the GT3 variant, with more of a track focus but maintaining a full interior. I want to wrap the roll protection in leather and come up with a fixed version of the RF roof. Probably some bodywork for visual aggression and the fattest tires I can stuff underneath. But I have to come up with a justification for destroying our marketing budget
Keith - I think you’re spot-on with this idea. The basic ND shape is commendable, but when combined with FM’s addition of proven chassis and drivetrain (525hp, guys!!), I think you need the exact halo car you’re considering. Think Rocket Bunny but, maybe, somewhat more refined..? Aggressive looks and the Colorado-installed FM power, sound, brakes, chassis, leather with contrast stitching on everything (sorta), to back it up. There has to be some deep-pocket guys out there that would want to add this to their rolling fleet alongside their 991, Mcar, whatever... That would be such a head turner at SEMA and beyond.
Perhaps convince a few high-end specialty auto retailers to pre-order one of 20 or so “limited edition/ bespoke kind of thing” and then you have that initial (small and manageable) order to kickstart the Habu Xtreme or whatever it’s called...
Hope you get your way with this. If so, sell me a ticket to SEMA so I can blab about this car to everyone I see at the show!!!
I've thought about that. If this were the '60s, I'd be heading for Le Mans with a V8 Miata. But it is no longer those days and it's a lot less accessible than it used to be. I'm not sure it's exactly what we need for the Habus - we have a dedicated V8 racer with competition history, but it's not the car that pulls in the ND customers. It's the streetability and the "it feels like a proper production car" that gets them. So far, CAN-controlled active exhausts and fully functioning automatic climate control have been the sort of thing they ask about, not lap times. We'll have a car at Monterey this year, we'll see how that goes.
TVR doesn't have much of a racing heritage, but they are going to slap their name on a Rebellion WEC car to try to jump-start that. Won't look anything like a street car, but it's a way to try to get some instant track cred.
The proposed SEMA car would give us a chance to do some body modifications. I agree that a subtle visual distinction is needed, but that's a lot harder to do well than making the chassis work
If it's not clear, I am really appreciating this discussion. It's making me work through some questions.
Understood. I can visualize your fully-vetted & refined FM ND with the aggressive GT3 spice baked in! Please proceed.
and I’ll park this here for stimulation...
In reply to Keith Tanner :
How about a One Lap victory?
Keith Tanner said:I've thought about that. If this were the '60s, I'd be heading for Le Mans with a V8 Miata. But it is no longer those days and it's a lot less accessible than it used to be. I'm not sure it's exactly what we need for the Habus - we have a dedicated V8 racer with competition history, but it's not the car that pulls in the ND customers. It's the streetability and the "it feels like a proper production car" that gets them. So far, CAN-controlled active exhausts and fully functioning automatic climate control have been the sort of thing they ask about, not lap times. We'll have a car at Monterey this year, we'll see how that goes.
TVR doesn't have much of a racing heritage, but they are going to slap their name on a Rebellion WEC car to try to jump-start that. Won't look anything like a street car, but it's a way to try to get some instant track cred.
The proposed SEMA car would give us a chance to do some body modifications. I agree that a subtle visual distinction is needed, but that's a lot harder to do well than making the chassis work
If it's not clear, I am really appreciating this discussion. It's making me work through some questions.
Here's my perception of your first paragraph...as always I could be wrong. The people asking about CAN-controlled active exhausts and climate control ALREADY want your car and want to confirm that it is truly a fully integrated complete car. These people already think the product you put out is cool, they just ask questions to make sure it works. My understanding of what you are trying to do is change the image of your cars with people who don't think it's cool (or as cool as the competition) regardless of specs and refinement. It is my two cents that for you to do this you need to pick an image and reinforce it in a concrete way. TVR in the 90s was a bad boy/punk kinda image. It didn't matter if it won. It didn't matter if it worked. It made the public and owners feel something. To me projecting the image of an " underdog winner" or "the car that REAL racers drive" is probably your best bet of changing the publics feelings. You don't need to change peoples feelings that are asking you if the AC works.
Going hard in WRL and AER would go a long ways in changing the "publics" feelings. I would imagine that a lot of people racing in those series would also be potential customers. It may be worth talking to Wilwood and Fox about sponsorship or even association in the series. I would imagine both companies have a decent social media profile and would love to share your wins on their accounts (with the proper decals on the car of course). I know very little about racing sponsorship but these are just some thoughts.
One last thing, and I don't know how to say it nice, the name Habus ain't gonna cut it. Not sure what others think, but for me it's not great.
etymology of the Habu name? I'm clueless. Yeah on the '60s LeMans allusion. I'd suggest Shelbys repainting his Cobra in different colors but it probably wouldn't work as an illusion nowadays. You could subtly without lying suggest there are these super rare pre-production barn find Mecum ready V8 Miatas already out there in the wild. 
I've often thought there isn't much romance left in society nowadays just marketing. Think about it James Dean Porker Spyder and nowadays whatever Biebs is running over a paparazzi with. As important as marketing is maybe it's just not enough. I hope you rock SEMA if you make it. One last suggestion and it's expensive but a blast around the 'Ring with a top driver maybe. 
In reply to Keith Tanner :
I'll admit that I'm not likely to call you soon and place an order but Lil Stampie likes to throw out "What car would you get for $100,000?" a lot like 5th Grade boys do. In my hypothetical shopping trip I cross shop the Cayman S and yes the Z06. If it helps I always buy from you guys but the one thing I always wish was it didn't look like the Miata I saw at the red light a mile back. Maybe a tasteful body kit with some cooling ducts. I love the NAs with the vented hood. I was half serious above about a FM Fiat because both times I saw a 128 it caught my eye as something different I don't see all the time. But as soon as I come into my rightful extra $100,000 I'll holla.
Stampie said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
...but the one thing I always wish was it didn't look like the Miata I saw at the red light a mile back. Maybe a tasteful body kit with some cooling ducts...
I think tasteful and function is key to whatever you decide to do with the exterior Keith. Maybe work with an existing company to create something...like APR or whoever.
Left field idea: Why not both? Flying Miata could start making LS powered Sagaris kits and beat these guys at their own game:
http://www.grexautomotive.com/the-kit
I actually emailed them about placing a deposit a few months back and wasn't impressed with their answers. I would love to see a US company turn out a quality competitor. I can forward our email chain if it interests flying miata.
In reply to Flynlow :
Just curious what kind of money were they talking for a completed car?
In reply to nutherjrfan and 80sfast :
"Habu" is Japanese word used to refer to a number of small venomous snakes native to the coastal areas of East Asia. If you think of the Shelby Cobra as an AC Ace with a V8 swap, you can see why a Mazda MX-5 with a V8 Swap could be called a Habu. It was also the nickname of the SR-71 blackbird, so the word has a very cool ring to it for aviation enthusiasts and Cold War era air force pilots. You could argue that it's a classier and more memorable name than what most manufacturers of small volume specialty cars would come up with.
Unfortunately, the name "Habu" is neither classy or cool to people who grew up around the things. To a native speaker who spent a fair few summers visiting relatives living in rural Japan, the name Habu evokes the image of a tiny, dangerous nuisance that sends small children and old people to the ER. In my mind they fall into the category as the giant 10" long centipedes that also live in the same areas. So as much as I think it's neat that FM's V8 Miatas have a Japanese name, I kind of wish it was called something else.
80sFast said:In reply to Flynlow :
Just curious what kind of money were they talking for a completed car?
I was guessing it would be $60-80k finished, doing the majority of the work myself, minus final bodywork/paint and some interior outsourcing.
Having thought about this more the TVR should not be compared to the V8 Miata. It should be compared to or even considered the replacement for the Viper.
The FM V8 Miata I think should definitely be compared to and or be considered as an alternative (and maybe a better alternative) to a corvette.
Both are refined two seat sports cars with all the HP and handling that anyone can want. Both new are comparable in price. Both are not exotic in the sense that people will be all over it at the gas station.
The people that FM need to convince that the Miata is a good if not better alternative are the people that are in the market for a C7 or even a new 911. The people that are in the market for these cars are who FM needs to get the attention of.
Edit: wanted to add that the number of people purchasing a corvette or 911 is far greater than the number that will purchase a TVR making that market much larger.
In reply to boxedfox :
Thanks for the detailed answer on the name. Was not expecting that much detail. Awesome.
In reply to Flynlow :
Wow, that’s a chunk of change for that much work. Have you considered a FM V8?
In reply to 80sFast :
Ha! I have ;).
I just have an irrational love for the utter insanity of the sagaris. I will own one someday, either kit or authentic once they turn 25. I want to do burnouts and blow the smoke out sideways:
I'm just glad Gordon designed it. He can do little to no wrong in my opinion.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Keith,
I really respect your products and company, not to mention your presence here and all the advice/support you provide hacks like me. I’ve been thinking about your question of perception.
The latest issue of evo magazine (#257) might have the answer. It’s the car of the year issue and one article looks back to some memorable runner-ups over the last 20 years. Jethro Bovingdon’s pick was the Noble M12 GTO-3R. Everyone seems to rave about the ride quality, handling, finesse, etc. etc.
Here’s the quote that made me think of you:
On the final day of the test we moved away from the SS63 and up onto a smoother, wider road above Genoa. It was absolutely made for the GTO-3R and for a few hours I really thought it might win. Everyone who emerged from it (rubbing their back in mild agony) looked a bit shell-shocked. The Noble was running circles around the Lambo, driving away from the Ferrari. As John Barker said at the time after another scintillating run over the hill: ‘In its own way it’s a bit of a Zonda, a car seemingly out of nowhere.’ Dickie Meaden loved it too, but christened it ‘the ultimate journalist’s car’. ‘It is bloody fantastic to drive,’ he explained, ‘but it’s difficult to imagine sinking your own money into.’
That last part is the key to your question IMO. Even if your V8 Miata is the best sportscar available, people are going to think twice before dropping $80k on it. Forget about Corvettes and Vipers ... that kind of money buys a used GT3 Cup Car or any number of exotics, including Ferraris. The very best examples of the 348/355 with little more than delivery miles won’t approach $80k. Lots of solid 360 Modenas for that money, too.
I like to think of myself as the kind of guy who would choose a Noble over a Ferrari. But I don’t know if I would actually put my money where my mouth is. If I’m trying to convince my wife to let me spend the kid’s college fund on a 2-seat V8 sportscar, I might be able to sell her on the idea of an Aston Martin Vantage in the driveway for $40k ... but twice that amount for “a Miata”? That might be tough to pull off.
So, I'm back.
Making people consider our Habu (sorry for those who don't like it, but it's the name. "Small venomous snake from Japan" is the quick and easy definition) as a real car and not just "a Miata" is the goal. Because it IS a real car that stands apart.
We don't need to sell that it's fast, that part is obvious to anyone. Nobody ever seems to question reliability, as it's a very proven drivetrain. Racing will only prove that it's fast and reliable. So as much fun as it would be to take it racing, that's not going to prove anything that we need to prove.
What we need to convince people of is that it's a legit alternative to other exotics. We need to make sure that more people know that the ABS works, that it doesn't overheat in traffic, that it's a sweetheart to drive and not a bloody murderer like my MG is. We know from the people that buy them that this is important and that we've pulled it off. But we need to get that information into more people's heads. I know our web presence is a problem here, when you go to look up the cars you find them attached to a parts store that also sells inexpensive suspension for 30 year old Miatas. That'll be changed soon. I've been preaching for a while at FM that we need to psychologically separate the Habus from the parts business but still keep the association with the name, and I'm finally going to have a chance to do that. I also need to get the car into potential buyers' consciousness. The Smoking Tire video has been the most effective so far, showing that print just doesn't convey these cars properly. We have another high profile filming session coming up at the end of the month, so that's good.
The people buying these cars aren't looking for a project. They don't want the risk of a highly depreciated Aston or a Maserati for pennies on the dollar. They're cross-shopping Cobra replicas, 911s and very rarely Corvettes.
LanEvo, of all the journalists who have driven the car, Jethro was the one who seemed the most ambivalent about it. Go figure.
I've ridden in the Habu. I want one. My problem with them is this, they're not "special" like the TVR is. They're not exotic. They're "just" a brutally fast Miata and to be 100% honest, the Miata itself isn't special which is one of it's great appeals. After riding in the car at FM I would 100% buy one over a new Corvette any day. No hesitation. But I'm not sure I'd buy one over a TVR.
I would love to see FM advertising a more "bespoke" experience. Come to Colorado. Drive the Habu. Go to dinner with us and discuss options. The car as it sits is great but I'd love to see an option for the widebody, with or without paint, different seats with a lower seating position that still keeps airbags factory seat heater controls and keeps the electronics happy with a swatch book. All of this is expensive. Most of it is stupid expensive, and yes, it can be done elsewhere, but if it's $50k to build a Habu but $65k to build a wide Habu with seats just for me, I'm spending $65k.
People have described the Habu as a modern Shelby Cobra, and in some ways they're right. Where it misses on the comparison is that the Cobra was visually distinct, at least in the U.S., and it had current racing chops when it was being sold.
The worst part about buying Rufus from FM was getting a ride in the Habu and knowing that as good as my new car was, its wasn't great. Someday. Maybe.
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