In reply to RonnieFnD :
Slow, small cars look like so much fun on track!
In reply to RonnieFnD :
Slow, small cars look like so much fun on track!
In reply to Evanuel9 :
The weights you have listed for the cars I've suggested are all largely incorrect other than the celica and cobalt SS. So I'd say to answer your original question there are quite a bit of options you're overlooking and missing for a sporty lightweight enthusiast car.
In reply to lnlds :
Would you be willing to share the correct weights?
From what I can find you're right on some of them - serves me right for using wikipedia.
Rolla XRS - 2670 lbs: https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/corolla/2005/st-100396223/features-specs/
8th gen - 2593 lbs, I just found this: https://www.clubcivic.com/forum/pages/8th-gen-honda-civic-specs/ although the base model isn't hotted up.
Matrix xrs: 2800 lbs, https://www.edmunds.com/toyota/matrix/2005/st-100395254/features-specs/
2nd gen mazda3: 2950 lbs, https://www.edmunds.com/mazda/3/2012/features-specs/
Duratec focus - 2738, https://www.edmunds.com/ford/focus/2005/features-specs/
Sentra b13 (non se-r): 2346 lbs, https://www.edmunds.com/nissan/sentra/1993/features-specs/
Matrix, mazda3, and duratec focus strike me as too heavy for what they offer compared to the modern subcompacts. XRS seems nice since it's lighter and hotted up. Base 8th gen civic is nice but if I go civic would likely go with a dual wishbone model - the hotted up 8th gen SI version is 2800 lbs.
Evanuel9 said:In reply to WOW Really Paul? :
I really like the MCS - it's the only one in the group with IRS and it's pretty cool looking. It's 300-400 lbs heavier than the mazda2 and 100-200 heavier than the fit though and I'm curious if that will make a difference?
Can you explain what you mean by an oil powered brick?
The MCS makes the power to offset the weight, the Abarth does too. The issue with the Abarth in the US is that they don't have the twin cam engine the Euro cars do. The bottom end is the same, but US cars are single overhead cam(only runs the exhaust valves). The intake side had the multiair brick under the valve cover, it is basically an electro/hydraulic actuator system for the 8 intake valves. There isn't a camshaft running the intake side. You can either get a prometeo oil pan that expands oil capacity past 9qt or convert the car to the euro T-jet twin cam setup. Multiair bricks also can randomly fail, and it's a salty dealer only part that is sometimes available in the US.
Evanuel9 said:I've read that the fiat is 2500, mazda2 is 2200, fit is 2400, cooper is 2550 ish (though I've read the S is heavier - can't find concrete info). You're right for the FiST though - base fiesta is in the 2500 range but the FiST is 2700.
The FiSTs wheels are 28lbs, so you can easily drop a bunch there. I also removed the spare, jack, rear seats, some minor stuff. I added a tire goo kit, rear floor/carpet. It weighs in at 2600lbs.
To buy my FiST I did a fly and drive to somewhere I wanted to visit for a trip anyway.
In reply to Evanuel9 :
Much better. Mazda 3 skyactiv comes in at 2896 according to edmunds in manual which is a heavy for the assignment but the 08-11 focus coupe is 2,588 lb in manual, b15 sentra se-r spec-v at 2710 lb, but with lsd and slightly hotted up at "180" hp .
I don't see how most of these are "too heavy" if you really want a FiST (2742lb) or Mini cooper S 168hp (2679lb - no spare tire kit). Most of these heavier (non b-spec options) have additional power/acceleration advantage which will help in weight transfer, uphills, and tracks do have straights. It's fun to haul in the turns but sucks to waste 1/3rd to 1/2 a session putting along slowly on the straights.
Realistically on a budget you'd be shopping for a fit/rio/mazda2/yaris if you stick to a b-segment car. The ge8 fit being the fastest one of those is 2489lb with 117 hp. The non-hot base 8th gen civic, 08+ focus both only weight 100lb more with 20+ more horsepower. The more pedestrian celica gt is 2400ish lbs with 140 hp. More power will get you back to the turns quicker. I'd also take a look at your local tracks and see if they're power tracks or miata tracks.
The suggestions for the base focus/civic and even mazda3 come from a practicality standpoint where these cars are readily available at <~15 years old, and less likely to be abused/neglected compared to sportier models. Also weigh in the importance of a LSD (the 8th-si might be a wise choice if you can find a good example).
If you can go for a double-wishbone honda it would be a much better candidate than the majority of these choices (assuming you can find one that is in good condition, still reliable, and honda theft isn't an issue for you), but those cars are almost twice your age at this point, rotten, and on their 10th owner.
Evanuel9 said:In reply to RonnieFnD :
Slow, small cars look like so much fun on track!
They are a blast. I have more fun in this thing than I've had in a long time. As far as the multiair questions you have I'll post a pic when I get to work of a multiair. I have a fiat with no valve cover on it in one of my bays.
One cam, one brick. If you keep clean oil in it and always use a oil flush (BG epr or similar) they are pretty problem free.
Evanuel9 said:In reply to ProDarwin :
Thank you! Is the standard wider than it is tall?
I did find a couple videos of 500 abarths rolling - that does scare me a bit. Surprised the fit isn't.
So basically 90s civics?
I think the minimum is track width > height. But thats not a guarantee. The Saturn coupes famously pictured on two wheels at solo nationals have a track width 3.5" more than their height, and a CG signifcantly lower than many of the tall boxes discussed in this thread.
You seem to be very focused on lightweight moreso than speed, etc. Weight is obviously a huge factor in autocross, and a large one on track. I wonder if you are considering safety, classing, reliability, etc.
If weight is the goal:
^all of those 90s E36 M3boxes are available under 2500lb, some significantly less. I'm sure there are a few I am missing as well.
The Civic and CRX are the odd ones though as the earlier ones are lighter than anything else on the list, they have double wishbones, and they have all the motor swap options.
If the target is unlimited speed in a lightweight fwd car, yes, go find a 90s Civic Hatch. Its the Miata of lightweight FWD platforms. You can build it to whatever level you want, for whatever kind of racing you want.
If you want a fun track day and autox car, take a look at classing, reliability, safety, etc. as well, and yeah, you'll probably end up in something more than 2500lbs.
Evanuel9 said:In reply to bobzilla :
Manual ones seem to be a unicorn around me. I do like them though
Manual SX was only available for 2013, and there are only 399 left. 400 imported. All other manuals will be the LX model with no cruise, manualwindows and door locks. 12-17 Rio's are all still defeatable with tcs but ABS stays active. Swap the SX rotor and caliper bracket for the better brakes.
I had a 2013 Fiat 500 Abarth for 7 years, many AX and a couple simple track days. Never had an issue with cooling or pretty much anything, it was a damn fun car with Eibach springs (had KW coilovers for a bit but needed rebuilding) and Hawk brakes. CAI, aftermarket chip-thing I forget the brand, larger rear torsion bar. SCCA kept changing the class every year.
I had it weighed at the local drag strip once on a public run-what-ya-brung night, with the back seat out and my 175# ass in it I believe it was 2700 or so pounds?
I can tell you the Rio with 240lbs of me, full tank and spare weighs 2780lbs. Take out me, and the 40lbs of tire and wheel and the car is at 2500lbs with a full tank of gas. There is no weight reduction on this car other than wheels/tires and I've added sound deadening and rear bar. 138crankhp, most dynos put them around the 115-118whp range.
So having not seen the previous threads I am not 100% sure if this is going to be a daily as well but it seems like a 90s Civic might be the ticket if not a daily. My coupe is approaching 2100 but that is minus A/C, stereo, rear seat and sound deadening but still has the sunroof. Hatches are lighter. CRXs are even lighter.
In reply to WOW Really Paul? :
Swapping a head genuinely sounds like a really fun project that I'd enjoy but I'm not sure if my parents would allow it.
Chassis wise, how does the abarth compare to the mcs. I know the mcs has IRS and a lower CG but the abarth is smaller and lighter.
In reply to Snrub :
That's surprisingly light. I've heard awesome things about a fit and found one near me but the owner said third gear grinds. I might have found one farther away if my parents agree.
In reply to RonnieFnD :
Oh ok I get it now. I see why it could be a problem with long hot track days
Do you enjoy the multiair and presumably the fiat it's mounted to? Any significant trouble?
In reply to ProDarwin :
Thanks! I'll definitely try to check whether they are banned for rollover risk before I pull the trigger on a car - I don't want something that I can't race.
I am focused on lightweight, but much of that focus is theoretical and built on a couple factors. Let me explain. I haven't driven many cars but of those that I have driven I have liked the lighter more ninble ones. Furthermore, my mentality is that if I'm going up to 2800-3000 lbs then I might as well go rear wheel drive with a 3 series because then I'd get the rear wheel drive without the weight penalty if I'm comparing it to a 2900 lbs fwd econobox vs a 3000 lbs rwd 3 series. I care more about lightweight than speed because I car more about handling and fun than sheer speed.
I haven't particularly considered classing, reliability, or safety. In the classing side of things it's just not something I even thought about - though I am thinking about it now. My other reasoning is that I likely won't be competitive anyway, but autocross and track time are a way to get seat time. In terms of reliability, while I don't want something that is always broken, I don't need a dependable daily driver because I am within walking distance of work, and will be within walking distance of class when I get to college. And because I have a great public transport system in my city, and a great shuttlw system at college. And because I'm willing to, andnmore accurately enjoy working on cars. In terms of safety - I don't plan to hit anyone haha but also I figure any post airbags car will be safe enough, and my parents are requiring airbags.
Of those the civic looks the best due to the 4 wheel wishbones. I've found a few 90s civics near me in my price range. Any particular of those cars you'd recommend. Neons are neat but the 2nd gen ones are heavier and first gen are rare.
Crx is out because my parents require rear seats. Civic are in though, but only 90s ones because my parents are requiring airbags.
Realistically the problem is that I don't know what I want. I know I want something fast, lightweight, and most importantly fun but I dont know much beyond that. I don't have a specific autocross or track goal besides learn to drive fast around a circuit. This is evident in that fact that my short list of cars includes b and a segment hatches, hot hatches, and then 3 series, WRXs, etc etc and i still havent decided whether i value weight, speed, rear wheel drive, track reliability/dominance, etc. and I don't know what I don't know to help me make that decision.
In reply to bobzilla :
Sounds like the lx is even better on account of manual stuff making it lighter. Are pre-2012 better because of the defeatable abs and tcs?
In reply to Jerry :
Frankly I love the abarth. It's light, small, good looking, has true soorting intentions, and is a rorty todsable little thing. But a lot of what I've read is that the chassis leaves a bit to be desired compared to its competitors. The engine makes the car from what I've read. How true is that?
In reply to bobzilla :
That is impressively light. And they aren't bad looking either. How is the chassis compared to all the standard options that people suggest like the mazda2 and fit
In reply to 93EXCivic :
Crx is out because my parents said no two seaters. Not necessarily a daily, more of a regular weekend use car that I will sometimes drive to work and school. Curious why 90s civics are bad dailys?
That is impressively light. I've found a 1997 hatch near me in my price range. Might take a look at it
Evanuel9 said:In reply to Snrub :
That's surprisingly light. I've heard awesome things about a fit and found one near me but the owner said third gear grinds. I might have found one farther away if my parents agree.
There aren't that many differences between the FiST and the base fiesta (or at least say the higher trims) that add weight. The turbo/IC stuff, wheels. The interior equipment differences probably aren't very big. The transmission is a bit beefier and might weigh a bit more. The knuckles, brakes and torsion beam add a small amount.
In reply to Evanuel9 :
12-17 TCS is defeatable with a single button push. Trust me, you want the ABS, it doesn't do wierd E36 M3 like some other cars (ice mode etc) and does help braking and confidence. Pre '12 are 110hp Alpha engines with timing belts. Good cars, but crap for aftermarket, t-belts every 60k and same weight but 30 less hp.
bobzilla said:Rio SX hatch has the big brakes over the Accent. Loaded SX with power everything is about 2550lbs. Lower trim manual windows are under 2500lbs with the 138hp GDI. Want a hot version? Snag a Veloster Turbo and bolt it in.
Do you have a thread for this? Do you mean the powertrain, or just the turbo parts?
I've been curious about the differences between the turbo and NA variants of both the 1.6 and the 2.0.
Evanuel9 said:In reply to bobzilla :
That is impressively light. And they aren't bad looking either. How is the chassis compared to all the standard options that people suggest like the mazda2 and fit
More room than the 2, smaller but better appointed than the Fit. weight distribution is actually better than both, putting more weight over the rear tires so the rear disc brakes actually do something on track. first gen fit and the rio both have the same weight on the front axle, but the fit is 300lbs (and 30hp) less.
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