Any other "b-segment" hot hatches

In reply to Snrub :

Ah I see, thanks! I might consider the base fiesta but compared to the fit or mazda2 it is a bit uninspiring.

Not going to lie, in the factors of safety, lightweight, fun, fast, in my budget, and within my area the first one to go is safety. My parents are already enforcing airbag cars and I frankly dont see the benefit of planning for a contingency that I am actively avoiding, while compromising on other factors when 90s safety is good enough if not the same as modern cars. If a 90s civic offers lighter weight, better suspension geometry, and a better aftermarket than a modern fit or mazda2 I'm more likely to go with the civic unless classing regulations or some other variable affect my decision. Feel free to change my mind though but that is my mentality.

How would you say they compare to the mazda, fit, fiesta, cooper, and abarth?

In reply to ProDarwin :

How likely is it with common street tires? Isn't grip more likely to go before wheels side down?

Evanuel9 said:

In reply to Snrub :

Ah I see, thanks! I might consider the base fiesta but compared to the fit or mazda2 it is a bit uninspiring.

Not going to lie, in the factors of safety, lightweight, fun, fast, in my budget, and within my area the first one to go is safety. My parents are already enforcing airbag cars and I frankly dont see the benefit of planning for a contingency that I am actively avoiding, while compromising on other factors when 90s safety is good enough if not the same as modern cars. If a 90s civic offers lighter weight, better suspension geometry, and a better aftermarket than a modern fit or mazda2 I'm more likely to go with the civic unless classing regulations or some other variable affect my decision. Feel free to change my mind though but that is my mentality.

How would you say they compare to the mazda, fit, fiesta, cooper, and abarth?

90s safety may be good enough for you, but it is no where near "the same" as modern safety.

Here's a crash test of a 98 Civic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJhndUSqWUg

And the same test on a 12 Fiesta

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjEuow7I3bo

The roof and door buckle on the civic and it looks like there is significant intrusion into the passenger compartment. Look at how much the dash moves.

The windshield isn't even broken on the fiesta.

In reply to Laserface :

Yep, that's what I said:

when 90s safety is good enough if not the same as modern cars

I understand how much better modern cars are at safety, I just don't particularly care because I think 90s cars are good enough when taking into account all the other factors that I need to compromise on. If I had an unlimited budget I'd buy a brand new car (gr86) and be done with it. But I dont

In reply to Evanuel9 :

The fiat rollover you likely found, and videos of fiestas bicycling are on 200tw street tires.

Its physics, the higher the cg relative to ground contact, the less lateral force needed before the car will lift the inside tires and start to roll.  At some point that force becomes lower than what the tires are capable of generating.  At nationals cars are usually at increased risk because the concrete surface is much grippier than asphalt.

Usually the worst case is acceleration spikes induced by a slalom in autocross.  

Evanuel9 said:

In reply to Snrub :

Not going to lie, in the factors of safety, lightweight, fun, fast, in my budget, and within my area the first one to go is safety. My parents are already enforcing airbag cars and I frankly dont see the benefit of planning for a contingency that I am actively avoiding, while compromising on other factors when 90s safety is good enough if not the same as modern cars. If a 90s civic offers lighter weight, better suspension geometry, and a better aftermarket than a modern fit or mazda2 I'm more likely to go with the civic unless classing regulations or some other variable affect my decision. Feel free to change my mind though but that is my mentality.

Lots of people feel the same way when they're younger. It's easy to gloss over the impact of less serious injuries. I got a concussion around the house a few years back and it's changed my life. A shocking number of people have post concussion syndrome and will never be the same, they just don't advertise it. I can work, do some stuff, but it's kinda like having an extra 50 years of being elderly. I can't do the same stuff with cars. Lots of people who break their knee, ankle, etc. are in constant pain for the rest of their lives and can't do what they used to do. Why be crippled by a minor accident when you can be normal?

Airbags are important part of preventing injuries. I remember seeing a side impact crash test of a ND Miata and it looks liked the side airbag prevented the head from hitting the pole. I can't help be wonder if the same accident meant death or major traumatic brain injury, even in many hard top vehicles.

I haven't driven a race prepped 90s civics, but I don't think a "regular" 90s civic drives better than a more modern car. Lighter is more fun, but 100-200lbs doesn't automatically make car A better than car B. My mother in law moved from a 99 civic to a 2013 Accent. I think the accent is better to drive in general, although perhaps not at the absolute limit. There's a minimum value for a car that is drivable. I don't think you're going to save much/any money going to a 25 year old car vs. a 10 year old. Superior suspension geometry doesn't automatically make an older car better than a newer car. The current CTR has struts.

I do think getting an ecoboost fiesta and swapping in used/junkyard ST suspension is one of the cheapest, easiest, best ways to get great car in this class. I'm sure a k-swap civic would be fun too. I liked driving a Mazda 2, but the steering felt a bit weird to me.

OP, you sound like a youngster.  I'm guessing a teenager?  I'm jealous, LOL.  What is your racing experience to date?  What is your mechanical aptitude and budget?  What is your time schedule like?  I have 3 teens, one turns 20 in a few months.  Both my boys are into cars and racing.  My oldest just started in Lemons, I've been instructing him for a few years on track days.  Anyway, my point is that my teens are very busy, so time for track is limited for them anyway.  How about you?

I would start with those questions and then focus in on the right car.  On a very broad scale, I think you're focusing far too much on weight.  Yes, it's a big factor, no doubt.  At the same time I have tracked cars weighing more than 2 tons and had a blast.  Just requires a different driving style.  Until you get a wealth of experience you're very unlikely to notice the difference between 2700lbs and 2800lbs anyway.

Hope this helps and awesome you're into motorsports. 

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Yep, I'm 19. Don't really feel like a youngster compared to real Motorsports people who started at like 5 years old but who's counting lol.

My racing experience to date is mostly sim stuff and 1 or 2 casual karting weekends - really minimal. Im a bit E36 M3 at performance driving lol. I have begged my parents to let me get more into it but they're not huge fans of Motorsports/danger/cost. I used to want to be an F1 driver but after not starting karts at age 5 that dream went out of the window. 

Mechanical aptitude is pretty low compared to most on this forum. I have very minimal experience actually working on cars. However, I have a lot of experience in high school robotics, a deep desire and interest in working on cars, and the ability to quickly learn. 

Budget is around 9,000-10,000 all in based on what I will end up making this year minus my living expenses. I have 6,200 saved up currently. but seeing as I will have to pay for consumables, safety equipment, mods, and maintenance my realistic budget for the car itself is 5.5-6 thousand. 

Schedule is two days a week completely free, and work from 6am to 2 pm on the other days, those off days change but usually include Sundays. 

Want to adopt me lol? In all seriousness that sounds awesome. If you ever want an extra driver or wrench monkey or pair of hands, I'd be happy to help. 

I'm going to lose most of my free time and access when I head to college in August (in a small town that isn't near a track). So my time is fairly limited both in how many months I have, and hours per week. But I think I can still squeeze some track and autocross time in there.

I'm definitely aware that 100-200 lbs difference won't really be felt, but how about 600-900 lbs (mazda2 or Honda fit weight vs 3 series). The reason I'm so focused on weight is because I don't know how else to judge fun lol. Having not driven many cars, that is the best numerical measurement I can find for fun, handling, and less wear on consumables. 

Definitely helps a lot! Thanks!

In reply to Snrub :

You're right, I definitely don't want to have my life permanently affected by something that could be minor, but I also don't want to live my life in fear. I'm the kind of person who wants to own and drive a 1st gen Elise, despite it being small, unsafe, and generally closer to a motorcycke than most cars. I feel like I'd be letting fear dictate my life if I eliminated a whole class or generation of cool older cars that I love based on the fear of an accident. 

In terms of airbags, yeah - I've begrudgingly accepted that a car with airbags is worth it and pretty necessary. .

Aren't 90s civics considered the cream of the crop for moddable fwd platforms? The double wishbone on these cars seems to be seriously lauded as incredible compared to most similar cars/conpetitive. 

I'm coming around to the idea that lighter doesn't necessarily mean better, I'm just not sure what the cutoff point is lol. Realistically I realized today that I can't try to make my decision based on theoretical numbers and specs. I need to actually drive the cars to decide what I enjoy. 

The fiesta with suspension swap is a very intriguing proposition. Would it be autocross legal? Can you talk more about how involved such a project would be? 

In reply to Evanuel9 :

So you are basically my older sons age.  Where do you live and where are you going to school?  

Given the details of what you said, I would strongly recommend something like a Mazda2, Mazda3, Honda Fit, Honda Civic, maybe even a Celica.  Look for one as well taken care of as possible.  Service records etc...  Don't worry one bit about modifications.  Don't worry about weight.  Your prime interest should be reliability, part cost and ease of working on.  You can have fun autox or HPDE just about anything.  You just need seat time.  My son started just like you... lots of sim time, but no seat time.  He has driven cars from $2000 to $250,000 with me in the passenger seat.  From 2300lbs to 3600lbs.  He's had fun in all of them and learned a ton.  I have tracked cars from 1800lbs to 5000lbs and had fun.  Funny you mention 3 series...the car I use to just beat the snot out of on track is an E90 328xi 6spd.  291k miles and 600tw tires.  He has a blast in it.  The 3 series is a gold standard in track days for a reason, despite being "heavier" than a B segment car.  For your needs, I wouldn't get one now just due to upkeep costs.  Get something reliable and get on track.  Don't worry about the rest right now.  Just think fun and reliable in stock form.  Honda, Toyota, Hyundai Kia, Mazda are safe bets.  I might vote for an older Civic Si if you can find one in good shape.  But most of the others mentioned in this thread are highly worthy candidates too.  I just suggest fairly close to stock. 

Oh, and as for safety... presuming your car is crash worthy to begin with, you are far safer on a race track than on a public road.  I spent almost 30 years in auto insurance claims and am a performance driving instructor so I've seen both in depth.  Race track is safer many times over. 

Evanuel9 said:

In reply to Snrub :

Realistically I realized today that I can't try to make my de based on theoretical numbers and specs. I need to actually drive the cars to decide what I enjoy. 

The fiesta with suspension swap is a very intriguing proposition. Would it be autocross legal? Can you talk more about how involved such a project would be? 

I'd strongly suggest you do some test drives to figure out what you like. It's fun too. :) 

Can you drive a manual transmission?

I was 20 when I bought my 1987 RX-7 Turbo II. It was a lot of fun. Cars are a lot more reliable today,  but I'd recommend you come try to do repairs/improvements yourself to save money. On my FiST, upgrading the rear motor mount ($40), buying a cheap short shifter kit ($40), and a pedal spacer made a big difference in how it feels and likely make sense for a base car too. YouTube is awesome for helping people figure out how to do repairs/upgrades. IMO shocks/springs, brakes are all pretty straightforward. It's also a question of can you find someone selling used ST bits in good condition at a low price.

I'm not up on autoX classing so I'm not the person to advise, but I suspect a ST suspension car might put you in an favorable class. In the older days springs would bump you out of the stock class and you'd probably not be well suited to the STx type classes.

Evanuel9 said:

In reply to WOW Really Paul? :

Got it, seems like a really cool project but might be outside my scope right now. 

The ecotec LSJ cars are neat, but if I'm already up to 3000 lbs I can go RWD with an e36 or e46. The benefits of FWD cars in this price range are down to weight. 3000 lbs ruins that

I mean, there is an e36 you can strip down to under 2200lbs....the issue with it is that it requires the most attention and skill to drive fast and is hilariously underpowered. 

In reply to WOW Really Paul? :

That's because it is a portly E30

You have looked at some cars that make me cringe when thinking about upkeep.

I know that you've pretty much eliminated them due to weight but I have to say, my 8th gen civic has been reliable as a hammer, gets 30+ mpg, and is hardly a heavy car by modern standards. It serves as my daily, backup autocross car (I usually drive a Miata), and track car.  
It's only the 1.8, but has a better power to weight ratio than the Fit or Mazda 2. 

Your parents will like the six air bags. 

With only a set of koni sport shocks, a rear sway bar, stock springs (class requirement for street class), a performance alignment and good tires and brake pads, it is really good at everything I use it for. I enjoy driving it as much as my E Street Miata. 

It's outclassed in H Street but it handles so well that in the event this picture is from I raw timed all of the B Street cars. 

I second everything SKJSS said.

And just for the record, if you go with a base Fiesta plus ST suspension, I'd skip the 1.0 Ecoboost. I wanted one for a while, until I learned it's a wet belt design, which can cause problems. The 1.6 would be my choice there, but it sounds like you're not leaning in that direction anyway.

Pete. (l33t FS) said:

In reply to WOW Really Paul? :

That's because it is a portly E30

Nah, its just a non fallic shaped Z3. 

Evanuel9 said:

Aren't 90s civics considered the cream of the crop for moddable fwd platforms? The double wishbone on these cars seems to be seriously lauded as incredible compared to most similar cars/conpetitive. 

I'm coming around to the idea that lighter doesn't necessarily mean better, I'm just not sure what the cutoff point is lol. Realistically I realized today that I can't try to make my decision based on theoretical numbers and specs. I need to actually drive the cars to decide what I enjoy. 

The fiesta with suspension swap is a very intriguing proposition. Would it be autocross legal? Can you talk more about how involved such a project would be? 

1) yes, DWB Civics are the cream of the crop for moddable FWD platforms.  Any FWD autox class that DWB Civics are in ends up being dominated by them, and other cars are just also-rans.  They are referred to as "God's Chariot" for a reason.

2)Good call.  Yes, drive some cars.  

3) If you are concerned about legality, you might want to start reading some rule books.  Off the top of my head, its only excluded from HS, so if you mod it you could legally run STH.  However often there is a need to prove a car meets the SSF/Rollover requirements after modding, but this is a grey area and many regions are not equipped to deal with it.  All that said, from what I understand even the ST is hopelessly outclassed in STH, which is why I recommend you look at the class you intend to run.

I don't know if you mentioned in this thread, but what is your budget?
 

In reply to SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) :

Live in Chicago, headed off to Troy New York for school.

Celicas are impossible to find around me, fits, mazda2, and civic are very plentiful. How would you say a DWB civic like an EM1 civic SI compared to a mazda2 (which I like more than the fit)? I definitely just need seat time, and I want to get as much as I can. 

I was considering the e36 and e46 3 series not because I especailly like the marque, but simply because they're the lightest RWD 2+2 in my price range and area. It seems like RWD just isn't worth it (the popular opinion of these threads).

I've got some plans to drive a mazda2, fit, mini cooper s, 500 abarth, and 8th gen si (cant find an em1 at a dealer) in the coming week. I will report back once I've driven them. 

I tried to convince them that racetracks are controlled, safer environments. Those protests fell on deaf ears when i was younger but now, being an adult, I am allowed.

In reply to Snrub :

Yep, got plans to test drive stuff in the coming week!

I can and will only drive a manual. I refuse to drive an autotragic. 

Thanks for the advice as well, like I said I love working on cars and really want to. The ST suspension idea seems like a fun project, I will definitely consider it, but I am unsure 

In reply to WOW Really Paul? :

I really really REALLY want a 318ti. I've been searching endlessly for one. The only two in my area that were stick - one had the seller ignore me (and a broken starter), and the other had electrical issues and sold before I could look at it. They're impossible to find

In reply to Floating Doc (Forum Supporter) :

Which ones? Mini and 3 series im guessing?

Haven't eliminated the base civic, though I'm not keen on it compared to some of the other cars, but the SI is out due to being > 2800 lbs. It does seem fun, I just wonder if I can have more elsewhere.

In reply to CyberEric :

Not leaning in that direction, but stillconsidering it. What's wrong with the wet belt design?

In reply to WOW Really Paul? :

isn't z3 still multilink and not trailing arm rear?

In reply to ProDarwin :

1) Found a couple EM1 civic SI's near me. How would they compared to the Fit or Mazda2. Probably faster in autocross but for fun factor?

2) will do lol, have plans this week.

3) Also will do!

My overall budget until august for consumables, maintence, car, mods, etc is 8000-9000, but my current budget just for the car, ignoring all else, is 6100.

In reply to Evanuel9 :

You are not going to find an EM1 Si in your price range worth owning in Chicago. Those prices have gotten ridiculous and anything there will be rotted to hell from saltbelt winters. If you do find one, it's going to need a lot of deferred maintenance and then you're DD, racing and maintaining a 25 year old car.