Anyone catch the Euro F1 race?

Adrian_Thompson wrote: So back up thread, Hammy gets hit by a car that was effectively returning to the track having all 4 wheels off and it’s his fault? Give me a break.

The car had all four wheels off because Hamilton pushed him off the track on the previous move. He had nowhere to go but off. When he came back on - Hamhead was there to catch him in the side pod. Regardless of penalties, Hammy always punishes himself. No points is a fine distribution for the former points leader du jour.

Including that drama - it really was a fantastic race. The middle of the pack was fired up. Caterham in the top 10? Lotus is going in the right direction and Grojean is going to win one soon but man, that kid has some bad luck.

Kobayashi seemed to hit more cars out there than anybody else...

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote: So back up thread, Hammy gets hit by a car that was effectively returning to the track having all 4 wheels off and it’s his fault? Give me a break.

The car had all four wheels off because Hamilton pushed him off the track on the previous move. He had nowhere to go but off. When he came back on - Hamhead was there to catch him in the side pod. Regardless of penalties, Hammy always punishes himself. No points is a fine distribution for the former points leader du jour. Including that drama - it really was a fantastic race. The middle of the pack was fired up. Caterham in the top 10? Lotus is going in the right direction and Grojean is going to win one soon but man, that kid has some bad luck.

Forcing a car off track when you have the line in the corner is SOP in F1. And has been for decades.

Not sure why that is a point of contention.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: Another thing. IF Maldonado had managed to make the pass stick then he would have had to give up the place again. You’re not allowed to get an advantage from going off track or cutting the corners, so if he’d got past he would have had to give up the place gain or risk getting a penalty.

Another reason Lewis should have given him more racing room. Maldonado entered that corner side-by-side with Lewis and Lewis forced him off the track. Maybe he slid wide because his tires were shot, in fact that's quite likely, but he did force Maldonado off the racing surface. At that point, Maldonado should have backed the hell off to avoid the contact. He claims that he couldn't because he was bouncing over the curbs, which is also possible, of course.

In other words, I think both of them can share the blame well enough.

z31maniac wrote: Not sure why that is a point of contention.

Because Schumacher and Perez have both been penalized for not giving racing room this season in incidents that did not even result in contact. In Schumi's case - he was holding Hamilton up. Allowing Hamilton to do it is inconsistent. But... inconsistency in rule application is also SOP in F1.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Not sure why that is a point of contention.

Because Schumacher and Perez have both been penalized for not giving racing room this season in incidents that did not even result in contact. In Schumi's case - he was holding Hamilton up. Allowing Hamilton to do it is inconsistent. But... inconsistency in rule application is also SOP in F1.

I will agree with your last sentence 100%.

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote:

z31maniac wrote: Not sure why that is a point of contention.

Because Schumacher and Perez have both been penalized for not giving racing room this season in incidents that did not even result in contact. In Schumi's case - he was holding Hamilton up. Allowing Hamilton to do it is inconsistent. But... inconsistency in rule application is also SOP in F1.

I disagree (no surprise there). Hammy gave Maldonado room at turn in to the right hander, but he had the corner and followed the line. Maldonado should have backed out of it at that point but didn't and went off. If HAmmy had stayed wide which I don't think he needed too, and Maldonado had come back on at got the place, i think he would then have had to give it up or suffered a penalty for making a place by going off course. what's most gauling is that if he'd waited I've no doubt he could have got past cleanly later in the lap.

I really like the penalty, it dropped him out of the points, but promoted Senna into the points so the team didn't loose out.

Adrian_Thompson wrote: I disagree (no surprise there). Hammy gave Maldonado room at turn in to the right hander, but he had the corner and followed the line. Maldonado should have backed out of it at that point but didn't and went off. If HAmmy had stayed wide which I don't think he needed too, and Maldonado had come back on at got the place, i think he would then have had to give it up or suffered a penalty for making a place by going off course. what's most gauling is that if he'd waited I've no doubt he could have got past cleanly later in the lap.

And I disagree with you. Hammy may have given him room at the turn in (duh, Maldonado was on the outside, of course he gave him room!), but at the exit of the corner, Hamilton tracks all the way out, he even puts his two outside wheels on the curb. At that point Pastor is still beside him, his nose maybe a few feet behind. They are essentially side by side, and if there had been a wall there Lewis would have forced Maldonado right into it.

It all comes down to who "had the corner" at that point, and I would argue that they were side-by-side, so neither one did. So Lewis should have given more room.

Watch it again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLA5_ZjdBTI

In reply to Tom_Spangler:

Yeah, when I watch that again I don't change my mind. Hamhead and Pastor were even at entry. He needed to leave room. If that was a wall he'd have wrecked him.

mguar wrote: In reply to Tom_Spangler: Ever race car has brakes last I checked.. Maldonado should have backed out of it.. I like Maldonado I don't like Hamilton (very much) but in this case Hamilton was right and Maldonado wrong.. That's why they have a driver in the group deciding punishment..

I would not have backed out were I Maldonado - I might have checked up once I was off rather than blasting into his side pod but both had a claim to that corner at entry and by FIA rules Hamilton HAD to leave room. Knowing the rules Maldonado could expect racing room - why would he not? Well, if he knew Hamhead's reputation he might have considered there wouldn't be any... but it remains that Hamhead didn't do what he was required to. Bad call.

mguar wrote: In reply to mguar: It's up to the passing driver to make a safe pass not someone racing for position to give way..

Ding ding din, we have a winner

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I would not have backed out were I Maldonado - I might have checked up once I was off rather than blasting into his side pod but both had a claim to that corner at entry and by FIA rules Hamilton HAD to leave room. Knowing the rules Maldonado could expect racing room - why would he not? Well, if he knew Hamhead's reputation he might have considered there wouldn't be any... but it remains that Hamhead didn't do what he was required to. Bad call.

I would have backed off if I were him. Hammy's tires were shot, he would have had ample chance to pass later in the lap rather than taking both of them out.

From the 2012 Sporting Regulations:

20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.

20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

Maldonado was well within his rights to challenge that corner and expect there to be a bit of room. Maldonado was along-side at corner entry and expected there to be a car width when Hamhead returned to his line after his one move. It's in the rules. HE HAD TO LEAVE ROOM. HE DIDN'T. Bad call. Simple as that.

Maldonado might be a reckless fool - but he should not have been penalized for that particular wreck.

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I would not have backed out were I Maldonado - I might have checked up once I was off rather than blasting into his side pod but both had a claim to that corner at entry and by FIA rules Hamilton HAD to leave room. Knowing the rules Maldonado could expect racing room - why would he not? Well, if he knew Hamhead's reputation he might have considered there wouldn't be any... but it remains that Hamhead didn't do what he was required to. Bad call.

I would have backed off if I were him. Hammy's tires were shot, he would have had ample chance to pass later in the lap rather than taking both of them out.

I agree with this portion. Once he was off the track, Maldonado should have backed off. But he shouldn't have been off the track in the first place, because Hamilton should have given him room.

Tom_Spangler wrote:

Adrian_Thompson wrote:

Giant Purple Snorklewacker wrote: I would not have backed out were I Maldonado - I might have checked up once I was off rather than blasting into his side pod but both had a claim to that corner at entry and by FIA rules Hamilton HAD to leave room. Knowing the rules Maldonado could expect racing room - why would he not? Well, if he knew Hamhead's reputation he might have considered there wouldn't be any... but it remains that Hamhead didn't do what he was required to. Bad call.

I would have backed off if I were him. Hammy's tires were shot, he would have had ample chance to pass later in the lap rather than taking both of them out.

I agree with this portion. Once he was off the track, Maldonado should have backed off. But he shouldn't have been off the track in the first place, because Hamilton should have given him room.

All of which makes me want to call it a "wash"; both committed boneheaded moves that cost them positions and points.

The penalty to Maldonado just seems like a knee-to-the-groin move.

mguar wrote: In reply to Tom_Spangler: Tom but go back and read the rule!!!! You are only required to leave racing room if you've made one defensive move.. turning a corner isn't a defensive move (swerving is) Hamilton had very right to use all of the track he needed since he entered the corner first..

So you're saying that, as long as a driver has the lead, even if it's by an inch, he is free to take a standard racing line through any corner regardless of what the overtaking car is doing? I don't buy it. How many times have we seen people do that "over-under" overtaking move going into a right-left bend like that? That's what Maldonado was trying to do.

Tom_Spangler wrote: So you're saying that, as long as a driver has the lead, even if it's by an inch, he is free to take a standard racing line through any corner regardless of what the overtaking car is doing? I don't buy it.

Do you remember the Rosberg moves in Bahrain..........on the straight!

In reply to mguar:

I'll defer to GPS previous post as a regard to the current rules, re the bolded section :

20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

I have to agree with GPS' assessment, too.

ymmv...............

z31maniac wrote:

novaderrik wrote: haven't seen the race- and i'm not really an F1 fan- but from what i gather here someone actually tried racing during a race, and thus got penalized?

F1 isn't NASCAR, crashing into the side of a car isn't considered a valid way to pass.

but aren't the last couple of laps in some F1 race in the early 80's where they were beating and banging and rubbing tires thru essentially every corner considered one of the best finishes in F1 history?

novaderrik wrote:

z31maniac wrote:

novaderrik wrote: haven't seen the race- and i'm not really an F1 fan- but from what i gather here someone actually tried racing during a race, and thus got penalized?

F1 isn't NASCAR, crashing into the side of a car isn't considered a valid way to pass.

but aren't the last couple of laps in some F1 race in the early 80's where they were beating and banging and rubbing tires thru essentially every corner considered one of the best finishes in F1 history?

I think you mean Villeneuve vs. Arnoux. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GHnLrRRgX0

And hey, whaddya know, they gave each other racing room!

Just watched the overhead shot. Maldonado made NO attempt to turn left KNOWING the track turned left, and that Lewis had a wall to the outside of him.

Maldonado didn't exactly play nice the lap before while trying to pass Lewis. He really moved over on him down the straight away trying to get Lewis to back down.

racerfink wrote: Just watched the overhead shot. Maldonado made NO attempt to turn left KNOWING the track turned left, and that Lewis had a wall to the outside of him. Maldonado didn't exactly play nice the lap before while trying to pass Lewis. He really moved over on him down the straight away trying to get Lewis to back down.

Kinda like him turning down on Perez or Kobash in Monaco at practice and damaging his front suspension..............in practice.

......not a race, not a race........but practice /Iverson.