AP2 Honda S2000 vs 987 Porsche Boxster S?

You're overthinking this -- if you like the Porsche better, buy one. :)

codrus wrote: You're overthinking this -- if you like the Porsche better, buy one. :)

+1. You're going into it with your eyes open, you still want one, so get one.

pinchvalve wrote: I thought a picture of each might help sway the decision, but damn they both look pretty good.

That S2000 looks great! But it's hard to deny the appeal of the 987...

steronz wrote:

codrus wrote: You're overthinking this -- if you like the Porsche better, buy one. :)

+1. You're going into it with your eyes open, you still want one, so get one.

You guys might be right, but because my eyes are open, I'm recognizing why the S2000's are holding their value while the Boxsters continue to depreciate. Most people are scared of the 986/987 cars for a lot of very valid reasons. The Boxster might be the better car, but if it suffers a major mechanical failure under stress, I could be out a very large investment. Engine replacement costs are just astronomical.

I have the money to buy and properly maintain the 987 S; but if I'm being honest with myself, I couldn't afford to spend $20k on an engine replacement if it popped a motor.

Truly, the AP2 S2000 is among the best cars I've ever driven on a canyon road. It's hard to believe the fun factor is so close to the Boxster's, despite it's much lower initial MSRP. Another appealing aspect of the S2000 is the fact that it can be modified to help overcome any perceived shortcomings it might have.

I honestly didn't notice anything I didn't like about the last couple of AP2 S2000's I drove- they were a blast to pitch around and I've wanted one for years! The S2000 is a great car, the 987 S is just slightly better. But that extra smidgen of enjoyment seems to come at a pretty steep price that I'm having a hard time justifying.

Anyone here own both by chance?

You seem to really like the Porsche so you should just go with that. You only live once.

This spring I will be selling my motorcycle and making a similar decision... 987 Boxster S, BMW M Roadster, C6 Corvette or 370Z.

Any reason you didn't consider a C6 in your search?

Devilsolsi wrote: You seem to really like the Porsche so you should just go with that. You only live once. This spring I will be selling my motorcycle and making a similar decision... 987 Boxster S, BMW M Roadster, C6 Corvette or 370Z. Any reason you didn't consider a C6 in your search?

I was under the impression that the C5 Z06 was more of a raw, driver's car and has a few desirable items like functional brake ducts, ect. From what I've read, the base C6 is a more comfortable daily driver, which wasn't quite what I was looking for.

I never did drive the Z4 M Roadster (they're tough to find around here!), but I drove the Z4M Coupe and was a bit disappointed. It felt more like a modified sedan than it did a dedicated sports car. The engine was great, but the rest of the car felt heavy and overly isolated. I thought it was a better GT car than a sports car.

I say go S2000. This is for all of the reasons you mentioned as well as the fact that it is easier to modify, so you can put a little money into it to get it feeling close to the Boxter. Its so much more mold-able for the money. With the Porsche, you gotta really roll up your sleeves if you want to mess with it at all.

Desmond wrote: I say go S2000. This is for all of the reasons you mentioned as well as the fact that it is easier to modify, so you can put a little money into it to get it feeling close to the Boxter. Its so much more mold-able for the money. With the Porsche, you gotta really roll up your sleeves if you want to mess with it at all.

Very valid points that I've given a lot of thought to. It's easy to add extra power, grip and better brakes to the S2000. Lower seat rails can even help in the headroom department... but there are a few areas where the Boxster will pretty much always maintain an advantage: steering feel, a bit more interior space and the flat-6 exhaust note. Not deal makers/breakers, but worth noting.

S2000 all the way. Porsches do nothing for me.

Neither..for 20k get an S54 powered Z3

If I were to bite the bullet and just get the Boxster, another important question: which year?

-Early 2005 would mean that I could just replace the damn IMS bearing with an aftermarket solution and be done with it. However, apparently some 2005's have the old design and other's have the new design, so it might be tough to tell which is which without some serious research that might be tough when buying a car that might be out of state.

-2006 cars have the updated IMS bearing and much lower failure rate (1-2%) from the factory, but prices aren't far off from the more powerful 2007-2008 cars.

-2007-2008 cars have the updated 3.4L motors with the lower IMS bearing failure rate; but from what I understand, they are also more likely to have cracked cylinder liners than the 3.2L motors: http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures/13-ENGINE-Common_Engine_Failures.htm

It looks like there's always a trade-off with these cars... The new engine in the 987.2 seems more reliable, but again, out of my budget.

Of course, I could always just buy the Honda, have fun for a few years while the 987.2's depreciate and sell the Honda for what I paid for it in order to buy a 987.2. I would rather keep either car for several years, but it's a thought.

roninsoldier83 wrote: I was under the impression that the C5 Z06 was more of a raw, driver's car and has a few desirable items like functional brake ducts, ect. From what I've read, the base C6 is a more comfortable daily driver, which wasn't quite what I was looking for. I never did drive the Z4 M Roadster (they're tough to find around here!), but I drove the Z4M Coupe and was a bit disappointed. It felt more like a modified sedan than it did a dedicated sports car. The engine was great, but the rest of the car felt heavy and overly isolated. I thought it was a better GT car than a sports car.

I haven't driven a C6 yet. Only my friend's C4 Grand Sport, and my dad's C5. I actually don't really care for either car, but I have heard the C6 is much improved so it is on my radar.

In your posts you mention that on some of the Boxsters the IMS is not serviceable. As in cannot be fixed? I was under the impression that they all could be upgraded, you just needed different kits for different years.

Here is a great (and really long) article on Pelican Parts website about the IMS issue.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/14-ENGINE-Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing/14-ENGINE-Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing.htm

I also think you may be underestimating the size of the aftermarket for the Boxster...or any Porsche for that matter.

Devilsolsi wrote:

roninsoldier83 wrote: I was under the impression that the C5 Z06 was more of a raw, driver's car and has a few desirable items like functional brake ducts, ect. From what I've read, the base C6 is a more comfortable daily driver, which wasn't quite what I was looking for. I never did drive the Z4 M Roadster (they're tough to find around here!), but I drove the Z4M Coupe and was a bit disappointed. It felt more like a modified sedan than it did a dedicated sports car. The engine was great, but the rest of the car felt heavy and overly isolated. I thought it was a better GT car than a sports car.

I haven't driven a C6 yet. Only my friend's C4 Grand Sport, and my dad's C5. I actually don't really care for either car, but I have heard the C6 is much improved so it is on my radar. In your posts you mention that on some of the Boxsters the IMS is not serviceable. As in cannot be fixed? I was under the impression that they all could be upgraded, you just needed different kits for different years. Here is a great (and really long) article on Pelican Parts website about the IMS issue. http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/Boxster_Tech/14-ENGINE-Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing/14-ENGINE-Intermediate_Shaft_Bearing.htm I also think you may be underestimating the size of the aftermarket for the Boxster...or any Porsche for that matter.

From my understanding, Porsche used 3 different versions of the IMS bearing:

-Early 986 cars from about 1996-1999 (some 2000-2001's as well) had a dual-row bearing with a pretty low failure rate (around 1%). These cars can be upgraded/serviced.

-Later 986 and early 987 cars from about 2000-2005 have a smaller single-row IMS bearing. These are the most problematic with a failure rate somewhere around 8-10%. These cars can be serviced/upgraded.

-987 cars from about 2006-2008 (and some late 2005's) got a much larger single-row IMS bearing that is supposedly as robust as the early dual-row cars. There are no solid numbers, but people speculate that the failure rate on these cars is similar to the early 1996-1999 cars (around 1-2%). These cars cannot be upgraded without removing and disassembling the engine.

http://theimssolution.com/ims-101/

I should have clarified when speaking about upgrading the Porsche. I know there's a real aftermarket for them, but I was comparing it to the S2000's aftermarket, which is much larger and has cheaper parts that are easier to upgrade. You don't hear of many people with boosted Boxster's/Cayman's, nor do you hear of 986/987 cars having swapped cams, ITB's, user-configurable EMS, ect, very often. In contrast, boosted and highly modified S2000's are a dime a dozen. It's actually tough to find a bone stock S2000!

I know highly modified Porsche's are out there, but they're not commonplace and will cost a small fortune compared to parts prices for the Honda.

I have been in a similar conundrum. I have a 82 911 SC that I have lost interest in that is around $30k in value.

My biggest problem with the S2000 is the roll protection is too short and aftermarket options (that I have found) require tossing the soft top.

I love the idea of a 987 Boxster but I can't seem to convince myself to track something that expensive. From my research, most owners who have had IMS catastrophes owned low mileage garage queens. Also, after working on my 911, I am not terribly excited about working on a mid engined car.

My current plan consists of a NC miata with a suspension overhaul including FOX coilovers, and 2.5L engine swap with intake, cams, and exhaust. In my head this combo would be highly reliable, serviceable and put up similar numbers to a 987 for less monies.

Anyway, I will be watching this thread. Please share what you end up with and the logic behind the choice.

ptmeyer84 wrote: I have been in a similar conundrum. I have a 82 911 SC that I have lost interest in that is around $30k in value. My biggest problem with the S2000 is the roll protection is too short and aftermarket options (that I have found) require tossing the soft top. I love the idea of a 987 Boxster but I can't seem to convince myself to track something that expensive. From my research, most owners who have had IMS catastrophes owned low mileage garage queens. Also, after working on my 911, I am not terribly excited about working on a mid engined car. My current plan consists of a NC miata with a suspension overhaul including FOX coilovers, and 2.5L engine swap with intake, cams, and exhaust. In my head this combo would be highly reliable, serviceable and put up similar numbers to a 987 for less monies. Anyway, I will be watching this thread. Please share what you end up with and the logic behind the choice.

I know there are a few roll bars out there for the S2000 that retain use of the soft top, but the most popular ones (Hard Dog) lose a couple clicks worth of recline: http://www.bethania-garage.com/s2000.htm

The NC also has very low OEM roll bars, although from what I understand, they're not really functional. My local track (High Plains Raceway) specifically lists the S2000 and Boxster as having adequate OEM roll protection for track use, but states that the NC Miata has "style bars" that are not suitable for track use:

http://highplainsraceway.com/drive-the-track/open-lapping-days-information/

I think you'll probably have the same headroom problem with the NC. I've driven both and the spec sheets Honda puts out are misleading. Both the NC and new ND Miata's specs show them having considerably more headroom than the S2000, but with the top up nothing is further from the truth; in the Miata's my hair was touching the roof, whereas in the S2000 I had ~1.5" to spare.

I actually considered the exact same NC plan you're talking about a while back... not a bad plan, but in the end it seemed that with a 2.5L swapped NC + bolt-ons, you're really just getting to around the same power level as the S2000 has stock.

Granted, the NC is a lighter car with better steering feel... but the S2000 has a stiffer chassis, better engine, better gearbox, better OEM seats and more rearward weight distribution (49/51% vs 53/47%). All without giving anything up in the reliability department.

I love Miata's (I've owned 2 of them), but after driving the NC and the S2000, there was no way the NC could come close to the S2000's fun factor for me without quite a bit of cash invested (with a new suspension being at the top of the list of needs!). Ditto with the new ND I drove a while back. I had to scratch the Miata's off of the list.

That's been one of my biggest reservations about the 987- the potential costs of tracking such an expensive car; especially if a major mechanical failure occurred. Despite my love for the 987 S, I'm leaning towards the AP2 S2000- it probably has 90-95% of the fun factor, but with only about 20% of the running costs (according to Edmunds TCTO).

I'd look long and hard for an elise if the other two were my other choices.

Ahh, I forgot to mention adding a rollbar from Blackbird Fabworks to my NC plan. What appeals so much to me about the NC is the price. Early examples can be had below $10k which leaves alot left for mods. Also, I struggle with modifications in general. I love the idea of making a car which is not great in stock form, like NC, and making it great. But having a car that needs much less sorting, like a 987, can be great and less costly as well. I have not driven a S2000 but have driven a NC and I fit fairly well (6'2" 200 lbs 34" inseam)

Thanks for the heads up on the S2000 rollbar. I thought most options wouldn't pass the broomstick test and retain the softtop. Looks like I need to add the S2000 back to my list. It certainly has a more entertaining drivetrain. Just need to find an unmolested one to drive....

You are trying very hard to apply logic, reason, and rational thought to a completely irrational desire. That is a recipe for endless analysis and no decision. I know, I have done it too.

Lets summarize what you have said many hundreds of words.

1. I drove many sports cars.
2. I really like the AP2 S2000
3. I really really like the 987 Boxster.
4. I am concerned about Porsche repair and operating costs.

The question is will you take on the cost of Porsche repairs and maintenance? Make that decision and you know which car to buy.

sesto elemento wrote: I'd look long and hard for an elise if the other two were my other choices.

I think I would enjoy an Elise, but I can't hardly find a good one within my price range (mid 20's). All of the ones I've found that I can afford have salvage titles, very high mileage or a "story" behind it. Most of the good ones seem to be $32k+, otherwise, it would be on the list.

Type Q wrote: You are trying very hard to apply logic, reason, and rational thought to a completely irrational desire. That is a recipe for endless analysis and no decision. I know, I have done it too. Lets summarize what you have said many hundreds of words. 1. I drove many sports cars. 2. I really like the AP2 S2000 3. I really really like the 987 Boxster. 4. I am concerned about Porsche repair and operating costs. The question is will you take on the cost of Porsche repairs and maintenance? Make that decision and you know which car to buy.

Haha, you hit the nail on the head buddy!

Absolutely correct, buying a weekend/sports car is a completely emotional decision! What's happening now is my rational side is trying to hit the brakes before I make a completely emotional decision that could come to haunt me financially down the line.

Spot on analysis my friend.

roninsoldier83 wrote: Absolutely correct, buying a weekend/sports car is a completely emotional decision! What's happening now is my rational side is trying to hit the brakes before I make a completely emotional decision that could come to haunt me financially down the line.

Hey, you're one up on me -- at least you're not shopping for an FD. :)

codrus wrote: Hey, you're one up on me -- at least you're not shopping for an FD. :)

Oh I've considered buying an FD in the past! I used to be a moderator on a local Mazda board and have seen too many constant headache FD stories and could never bring myself to buy one; despite my love for them.

But the FD does have a few big advantages over the a 987:

-When you pop an apex seal, you can rebuild it yourself in your living room.

-Rebuilding a 13B is much cheaper than rebuilding an M96/M97.

-For less money than it would cost to replace a 987 engine, you can swap an LSx into an FD and solve the "reliability problem".

Buying a 2-seat convertible sportscar for occasional weekend canyon runs is an irrational choice to begin with. If you over-think it and end up with something you're not passionate about...then what was the point of the whole exercise?

Personally, I'm not really into the roadster thing; neither the S2K nor the Boxster do anything for me. I'd buy a step-nose Alfa GTV before either of them. Or maybe an E30 M3 before they get priced even further out of reach.

Anyway, don't overthink it. Just get the one you really love.

My friend was cross shopping the exact same cars when he bought the Z3 pictured above. If you can find one to test drive you'll have a hard time walking away from it.

98-00 Z3M is an experience all unto itself.