I've now owned my 2020 ND2 Miata Club 6MT for about two weeks. During that time, I've grabbed the keys to the car as often as I could and pitched it around with a smile on my face almost every time. By contrast, in the past, I've owned two AP2 S2000's over a period of over 6 years of combined ownership (I owned my first S2000 for over a year vs owning my second S2000 for over 5 years). So, in terms of a period of ownership, it's not even close. I've spent far more time behind the wheel of an S2000. However, since picking up the ND2, I've now had enough time to navigate through all manner of [street] driving conditions- traffic, city streets, canyons, back roads, extended highway, you name it. So, in that spirit, since these cars are commonly cross-shopped, I figured I would share my more in depth impressions for each of them. Just FYI, this is going to be a long-winded, word salad that likely won't be very interesting for anyone that isn't cross shopping for these cars.
Note: I also spent a decent amount of time in my S2000's on track and in parking lots dodging cones, but since I've done no such events in the ND2, I'll keep this post focused on street driving.
Background:
I have no real bias to report. I owned my second S2000 for over 5 years, which is the longest I've ever owned a car, by a good margin. In addition to owning two S2000's (a 2007 and a 2008), I've also owned several other Honda's over the years- an FK8 Civic Type R, a 10th Gen Civic Si, 1988 CRX Si, EK Civic hatch and a DC2 GS-R.
I know what you're thinking: this guy sounds like a Honda fanboy. Well, you're right. Although, I'm also a Mazda fanboy. This is my eighth Miata (9th if you count my wife's old ND1). I've owned three NA's (two NA6's & an NA8), two NB's (both the coveted 1999 Sport and a 2004 MSM), two NC2's and now my ND2. In addition to a large stable of Miatas, my current somewhat "daily" is a 2021 Mazda 3 Turbo. I've also owned a couple of additional Mazda 3s in the past in addition to a Mazdaspeed 6 I owned way back in the day.
If you tally up every car I've owned from every manufacturer, the two brands I've spent the most time in by far are Mazda and Honda. I'm a big fan of both companies.
Aesthetics:
It's hard to compare looks due to their subjective nature. I always thought the AP2 S2000 (especially with the OEM front lip and trunk lid spoiler that were on my 2008) was a good looking car that will remain timeless for generations. The fact that it's held up so well 25+ years after being released is impressive. I will always think they're good looking.
In addition to owning two S2000's, I've now owned eight Miata's over the years. While looks are subjective, I personally think the ND is the best looking Miata that Mazda has ever produced. It reminds me of a miniature Jaguar F Type or Aston Martin. As good as the S2000 looks, I actually prefer the ND by the slightest of margins.
Disclaimer:
Be forewarned, I'm going to overuse the term "mixed bag" several times throughout the rest of this comparison.
Interior Overview:
When it comes to the interior, you guessed it, it's a bit of a mixed bag. The ND is a newer car, with newer tech that looks fancier by modern standards. Heated Recaro seats are nice and so is Apple CarPlay. However, there's something pure about the S2000's simple, driving focused interior. I enjoyed the Honda's lack of distractions and some of the "features" on the ND, I quite frankly wish they weren't there:
-The ND is tiny. I don't want or need lane departure warnings. I figured out how to shut them off as best I could, but I would rather not have this feature at all.
-The ND has the easiest clutch to work on earth. There is no world in which I believe this car needs "hill assist". All it does is make the car feel like something is wrong with it pulling away from an inclined stop due to the slight delay in engagement. I've been in cars with hill assist that are completely seamless- ironically my much older 2008 BMW 128i- and the hill assist feature in that car is never intrusive- it's so smooth I forget it's even there. Mazda's version is more of an annoyance than a helpful feature for someone that has been driving stick for as long as I have.
-The buttons. My word. I get it. The ND is a modern car with a very small interior- there's not a lot of space to put things, but even in my short time owning the ND, I've accidentally hit buttons/switches I didn't mean to hit more times than I can count. My S2000? Never.
While the Mazda looks just a bit nicer inside, don't get this confused, both cars seem to have a fairly solid feel to their interior materials. Neither feels like they're going to fall apart.
Neither car has much in the way of interior storage space. Neither has a traditional glove box in front of the passenger seat- with the only real space being behind/in the middle of the seats.
The S2000's cup holders don't really hold traditional American beverages. They're just large square holes and if you put anything remotely tall in them, they block your path to the shift lever and if your drink is of a round shape, it's going to fall over as soon as you start driving. However they were a great place to store a cell phone and wallet. I eventually installed a Modifry foldable cup holder in my last S2000 (wonderful addition!), which ironically, is the same concept placement that Mazda used for one of their removable cup holders in the ND. In stock form, the ND is better at holding drinks and not interfering with the shifter, but worse at holding cell phones and wallets.
I should note that in my S2000, I installed a Crux Bluetooth audio connector to the rear of the OEM head unit right after I bought it. While not stock, for 5 years, it worked perfectly every time I drove the car. So, while the ND having BT stock is a nice feature, it was a very easy, inexpensive "fix" on the S2000 that worked seamlessly, taking away one of the ND's modern "advantages".
Interior Space:
Interior space wise, the S2000 is a bigger car in every single dimension, by what feels like about 1/2 an inch in every direction (maybe closer to an extra inch of headroom with the top up). Neither of these cars are considered "large", comfortable cruisers, but the S2000 is a better fit for most taller drivers (myself included). At 6'2", 217 lbs (34" inseam, 34" waist) the ND is the smallest car I honestly fit in. Anything smaller and I'm just not going to be able to drive the car comfortably.
For reference, my ND2 is a soft top (more headroom than the RF) and has the Recaro/BBS/Brembo package. I'm not sure if the optional Recaro seats add or detract from interior space. I suspect they are just a bit deeper than the base seats, which might add to a smidgen of extra legroom, but that could just be a placebo effect from the more extended side bolsters.
Overall, the ND is a more intimate driving experience, but it's also a notably smaller, lighter car. Given the relatively similar-ish interior measurements, it's actually impressive that the ND is some ~500 lbs lighter than the S2000. It certainly has more room than you might expect from a modern, 2300 lbs car, while maintaining modern safety and emissions standards.
While the ND has a smaller interior, it's actually a bit more adjustable, which is helpful. In the ND2 you can adjust the incline of the front of the seat for more or less thigh support and the steering wheel itself tilts and telescopes, helping to find a proper driving position. In the S2000, both the steering wheel and the front of the seats are in fixed positions- either you fit properly or you don't. I always just fit in the S2000 (maybe just a slight reach to the steering wheel), so it was never an issue, but the ND is more adjustable which could be helpful for some drivers.
Seats:
I always enjoyed the seats in my S2000s. I found them to be comfortable while also holding me in place pretty well in the corners, but I could see smaller drivers sliding around a bit more. My one complaint with the S2000's seats is that unless you opted for the extremely limited production CR, leather seats are mandatory. I'm not a big fan of leather seats. Especially black leather seats. I feel it's just a recipe for my back turning into a swamp while driving around in the summertime.
Ignoring the multiple test drives I took in the "base" ND seats, I can't really speak to the base ND seats with any depth. What I can say is that I love the Recaros in this car! The bolstering is just about perfect- not too intrusive for someone my size and my torso doesn't move while pitching the car around (we'll ignore the fact that I do get stabbed by the door panel in my left leg). No. More. Leather. What a revelation! I'm of the opinion that alcantara seats should be the default option on anything of a sporty nature. And they're heated for the winter time!
As much as I always enjoyed the S2000's seats, the ND's Recaros are better.
Pedals:
The S2000 comes with beautiful aluminum pedals with rubber traction pads to make sure your feet never slip off the pedals. However, for whatever reason, the pedal spacing on the S2000 is just a bit further than it should be. I typically wear a size 11 shoe and found that heel-toe downshifts in the S2000 were a bit tougher to pull off than what I would expect in a sports car. The pedals are just a smidge too far away from each other, requiring a pretty aggressive press on the brake to get your foot low enough to blip the throttle with your heel.
By contrast, the ND, like every Miata I've owned before it, is the easiest car in the world to heel-toe. The pedal spacing is perfect.
The ND also has a first for a Miata: a floor-hinged throttle pedal. To be honest, I never had a problem with my S2000's floating throttle pedal, but I generally prefer floor-hinged pedals, as I find they have more natural pressure resistance and move more naturally to the way your ankle hinges. Are you really going to notice this stuff? No, probably not. But I do like Mazda's attention to ergonomics and natural body movements.
Setting off, as mentioned above, the ND has the easiest clutch pedal to work in the world, like pretty much every Miata that came before it. It will never tire your left leg or leave you guessing as to where the catch point is, unless that confounded "hill assist" feature is meddling in your affairs.
If you drove the S2000 in isolation, you would never think it was "heavy" or difficult to use, but the catch point on the clutch pedal is certainly a bit smaller and it engages more abruptly. It's also just a bit heavier than the ND's clutch.
The S2000's clutch isn't bad at all and again, in isolation, you would think it's wonderful. It's also great at quickly popping out when you're rowing through gears... but the ND's clutch is both softer and a smoother affair. In the canyons or on track, I might prefer the S2000's clutch for quick shifts, but in traffic, I would take the ND.
Engine/Acceleration:
Yep, I'm going to use that phrase again: mixed bag.
Let me start out by saying, I think the S2000's F22C engine is an absolute gem. I think it has more character and makes a better noise than any production 4 cylinder on earth. If you wind it out to the car's 8200rpm redline, it pulls with an urgency and howl that belies the actual rate of acceleration, in the best way (you feel like you're accelerating much faster than your speed-o is indicating). Running through gears in the S2000 on an empty canyon road is nothing short of magical. Honda tuned both the induction and exhaust tones to perfection in the S2000- that VTEC crack at 6000rpm is addicting. Truly the best sounding stock 4 cylinder on earth.
Now that we've gone down a magical rabbit hole, let's come back to earth for a minute.
Below 6000rpm, on the street, the F22C is well, meh. Below VTEC, it feels a lot like a base commuter car Honda Civic.
I know I'm going to get death threats for writing this, but before I bought my first AP2 Honda S2000, I test drove a few AP1's... as lack-luster as the AP2 feels below 6000rpm, the AP1, with its smaller engine (2.0L vs 2.2L) and slightly taller gears truly felt like a gutless wonder. There's a reason why I've owned two AP2's and yet, I've never been tempted to buy an AP1. I know, I know, the sound of 9000rpm is awesome. I agree with that. But for whatever reason, I never really connected with the AP1 like I did the AP2 and I found the AP1's even-more-abysmal low/mid-range power to really take away from the driving experience.
Getting away from high-strung Hondas and back to this comparison, around town, the ND2 has noticeably more low and mid-range pull. I can put my foot down in the ND2 at ~3500rpm and it at least moves as though it has a sense of a purpose. Try that in the S2000 and you're likely going to miss that hole in traffic that you were shooting for.
From a low-rolling start, say 5mph, pulling away from a traffic light, the ND2 feels like the quicker of the two cars, or at least until you hit VTEC in the S2000. I can see why their 0-60mph times are comparable, but that's assuming someone launches the S2000 and keeps it in VTEC. From 5-60mph, the ND2 is rated at being about a half a second quicker; which I think is about right.
On the street, at lower speeds, in more situations, the ND2 is quicker, more of the time.
As speeds increase and the ND2's weight advantage is diminished by drag, the S2000 is the faster car.
Which car feels faster? Flat out, if you're keeping it on-boil (above VTEC), the S2000 feels quicker and has a good bit more aural drama along the way. If you're keeping the engines at less attention-seeking-RPMs the ND2 is going to feel quicker below the speed limit.
The ND2 has a very flat, usable torque curve. The noise it makes isn't bad, but it's nothing to write home about. The motor feels playful and will happily sing to its ~7500rpm fuel cut off. In isolation, it's a great little engine... but by comparison, it can't match the character and power output of the old Honda VTEC unit.
Which motor would I rather have? In traffic, around town? The ND2. You can accelerate much more quickly around town in the ND2 without feeling like a jerk. In the Honda, 8200rpm of fury is awesome, but with the added noise, revving it out like that regularly can feel a bit excessive or obnoxious on your way to the grocery store.
On an empty canyon road or race track where I can keep the engine on boil? I'll take the Honda. For a downtown date night with my wife, I would choose the Mazda.
Transmissions:
For years, I've said that the S2000 has the best manual transmission of any vehicle I've ever driven, at any price. That might still be true, but when compared to the ND, we're splitting hairs here.
When cold, the S2000's gearbox is a bit on the crunchy side. When you get a bit of heat into it, it's nothing short of magical. Short shifts. Perfect gear ratios (in the AP2). Absolutely perfect weighting. When you slot it into gear there's a high amount of satisfaction to the movement. Like most Honda shifters, it's truly been tuned to perfection.
The ND also has an amazing gearbox. I'm well aware of the problems people have had with ND gearboxes (especially the earlier cars)- I know they can't hold the power that the S2000's transmission can hold. I can't speak to durability, but I can speak to the fact that this might be the smoothest gearbox I've ever operated. I have a hard time seeing how I could ever miss a gear in this thing! The action is a bit lighter than the S2000's shifter, but my word, it is precise.
These two are close enough that I can't pick a winner. These are the two best manual gearboxes I've ever had the pleasure of driving. At any price. While the S2000 might be slightly more rewarding (maybe?), the ND is incredibly smooth and about the easiest gearbox to work on the planet. This right here is what separates these two companies from every other manufacturer on earth.
Steering:
Mixed bag anyone?
Neither of these cars has a hydraulic rack that can match the feel of, say, a previous generation of Miata. However, for EPS racks, they're both very good.
The S2000 was a very early version of EPS. For its time, it was the best of the early EPS setups in my opinion. I always loved the weighting of the AP2's steering rack- just the right amount of heft. I also enjoyed the steering rack ratio for a sporty car that's not going to wear you out, keeping it in a straight line on the freeway (it should be noted that the AP1 and later CR have quicker steering rack ratios). It should also be noted that Honda made some significant changes from the AP1 to AP2 EPS system, so take this with a grain of salt if you're looking at an AP1.
After spending more time in the ND2, I will now concede, the ND2 has more feel through the wheel than the S2000. It's also a bit lighter, requiring less effort to get the car to change directions. I believe it has a quicker steering rack ratio, which makes sense, as it dives into a corner quickly upon turn-in.
I can't say if I really prefer either one. I like the extra feedback and sharper turn-in of the ND2... but I really like the weight of the AP2 S2000. If I had to lean one direction, I would probably choose the ND2, but only by the smallest of margins.
Handling:
Well, well, well, the entire point of having a roadster! (assuming you ignore the "top down" thing?)
Which one handles better? Ahem. Mixed bag. I don't care what anyone says, the body roll on the ND, even in Club trim with the OEM Bilsteins, is excessive. Steady-state cornering isn't bad, it's actually a lot of fun in the ND. However, these cars do NOT like quick transitions, such as unoccupied roundabouts where you're continuing straight ahead. If you start pitching the ND back and forth, it feels sloppy and disconcerting.
However, the ND has a nice little party trick: it's literally 500 lbs lighter than the S2000. No amount of suspension tuning is going to negate 500 lbs of weight. When you turn in on the ND the car feels as light as a feather. It feels like you're driving a flea!
The S2000? It has a better stock suspension setup. I mean, I don't know many cars that come from the factory with [rear] external shock reservoirs. The S2000 does.
The spring rates on the S2000 are roughly double the rates on the ND. Coincidentally, the spring rates on the S2000 are pretty close to what companies like Flyin' Miata and Goodwin Racing offer on their upgraded spring packages for the ND. The result? The S2000 has outstanding body control. You point, it goes.
Other than a bigger front sway bar (while autocrossing), I never touched the stock suspension on my second S2000, for over 5 years. If you have followed any of my build threads, you can likely guess how much of a rarity that is. I'm sure some aftermarket suspensions for those cars are outstanding, but the stock setup felt so well tuned, that I never saw the point on a street car.
It's been a long time, but I know of at least one SCCA national Solo champion that won Nats long ago on stock S2000 shocks. I'm not saying there aren't better solutions (there are), but I am saying that no one driving ND (on the base or Bilstein suspension) can claim the same.
For a sports car, I'll take the S2000's suspension any day of the week. In an aftermarket world: the ND's light weight, combined with a suspension that is comparable to the S2000's would be ideal. I don't have many plans for the ND- the only one I can think of is reducing body roll.
Does the ND ride smoother? Sure. It's just a bit smoother on the freeway and over rough roads, I suppose. The problem is the gap in ride comfort isn't big enough to justify the extra body roll in my opinion. My S2000s, despite having far more body control, never really beat me up on the freeway or over rougher pavement.
Light-weight pitchability (is that a word?)- ND2
OEM suspension- S2000
Brakes:
I'll keep this section short: the ND's brakes, at least the OEM Brembos my ND2 has, are better. Slightly better feel (neither is bad), easy to modulate, seemingly more fade resistance and more stopping power. I'm not sure if that's because of the calipers, or the much lower weight, or both. All I know is that the ND's OEM Brembos are slightly better than the S2000's stock calipers.
Don't get me wrong, the S2000's brakes, with decent pads and fluid, on the street and in the canyons are just fine (although I did need slightly better than stock pads in the canyons to avoid fade on one of my favorite roads). Around town, they're just fine. My first AP2, on track pads, stainless steel braided lines and upgraded fluid was just fine on track. They aren't bad brakes. The ND Brembos are just a bit better.
Soft Top:
For a simple, fun roadster, the ND's genius Z-folding top is perfect. Outside of a powered setup like the S2000 has, the ND has literally the easiest soft top to put up and down of any convertible I've ever driven. Almost no effort is needed in either direction and it takes maybe a couple seconds at most.
The S2000 has a fancy powered unit that never gave me any trouble. It works just fine and isn't even terribly slow. I have no complaints about the S2000's setup other than two things:
-I couldn't help but look back and see extra weight, for no good reason. These are supposed to be lightweight sports cars. Driver's cars. Why add the weight if it's not needed?
-I also thought about how much of a pain in the neck it would be to fix the automated setup in the event something went wrong.
Again, there's nothing wrong with the S2000's setup. Mine never gave me any problems. I just think it's added weight and complexity that adds to the cost of the cars, for no good reason.
One thing I'll credit the S2000 with: the windshield is lower, yet it has more headroom with the top up. The only downside I can see to the ND's soft top is that the Z-folding element seems to steal just a bit of headroom. Otherwise, I prefer the ND's more simplistic solution.
Fuel Economy:
Everyone's favorite comparison category for your weekend sports car! Let's be clear about this. For cars like this, I don't give a damn about fuel economy. With that said, in my S2000, I used to average MPG numbers in the low 20's... the ND2? I appear to be in the mid-low 30's. I know technology has come a long way and the ND2 is a lot lighter, but my word, I didn't expect the ND2 to have 50% better fuel economy!
Price Considerations:
These cars are many years apart. You cannot fairly consider new car prices for these cars. However, if you did... last I checked, a new ND3 Club starts at $31,550... when it left production in 2009, the S2000's starting price was $34,995... in today's money, calculating for inflation, if the S2000 were still being made, it would cost around $52,000.
That's nuts.
I'm not saying a brand new S2000 wouldn't be worth $52k today. What I am saying is that I can't believe Mazda gives you so much car, for so little (comparative) money.
If they were new today, there's no way in this world I would spend an extra $20,000 on an S2000. And I'm saying that as someone that loves the S2000. Is the S2000 $20,000 more car? No way, no shape, no form, no how.
Is the S2000 more car than the ND2? In some ways, yes. How much more car? 500 pounds more to be exact. Honestly though, it depends on what you value.
Are you willing you pay the same money, or more, for a much older car with lots of miles vs a brand new ND3? I wouldn't fault you if you did. The S2000 is an amazing machine. Here's the issue: so is the ND.
I'm of the opinion that both of these cars will likely be future classics. The S2000 kind of already is (it's been appreciating for years). I think the ND will go down the same path once it's been discontinued.
Fun Factor:
Which of these cars is more fun? Man, that's a tough one.
In town, I would say the ND is more fun to drive, more of the time.
On an open canyon road, I might switch my decision and go with the S2000.
Assuming you fit and enjoy tiny Japanese roadsters, I don't know that you can go wrong with either of these cars.
After owning both, I just figured I would share my thoughts and insights for anyone that was interested in either of these two comparable cars. Happy motoring!
