Are Big Blocks dead?

Appleseed wrote: Big block > small block when it comes to breathing. Have you ever seen a small block head with ports that you can shove your fist in? No you haven't.

I've never seen any automobile engine with ports that big. Is that some poetic license or are we talking $3500 a piece Brodix Heads? Because if it's the latter, an eRod with 430 hp is $9700.

It's probably a bit of apples to oranges if we are talking $7k for a set of heads on a big block and a 430 hp crate engine, but I'm not sure where fist sized ports get you...

oldopelguy wrote: The bone stock 413 that's in my '85 dually crew cab with the 4.10 rear doesn't even work with 10k# on the trailer.

Oh lordy. If you spin any v8 at 3k+ rpm it probably doesn't seem like its working to tow a 10k trailer. Beyond that, I don't think our definition of "doesn't even work" is the same.

NickD wrote:

Toyman01 wrote: In reply to NickD: Looks like the 6.8 V10 is still the standard engine for the F450 and F550 commercial chassis. It also looks like the F350 commercial chassis is still available standard with the 6.2 gas.

I'm not entirely sure if I would consider the 6.8L a big block. It's just a 4.6/5.4L with two extra cylinders grafted on. The last honest to god Ford big block was pr9obably the mighty 460, which expired in 1997. Had an F-350 with a 460 in it, what a monster, that truck would move anything as long as you kept it fed.

I drove a box truck with the 460 in it a couple of times.. the mpg it got empty made my boss trade it in on an Isuzu Diesel that got 11.

The most fun thing about it, aside from the endless torque, was the super short exhaust system it had.. I think it was all of 5 feet long. Wind the engine out to 4 grand (redline) and shift and it would let out the most ear splitting bang of a backfire I ever heard.

Was lots of fun to drive though the hood like that.. especially in low range so you had to shift a lot

RossD wrote: So you would probably do the same for the truck version of a small block LSx. What does it take to get ten year old truck engine to 400 hp? I don't know so that's why I'm asking.

A cam and a tune. http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1307-ls-cam-test-comparison/

Try doing this with a small block.

In reply to Flight Service:

That was the first picture I found on my photobucket.

It also tows this without any problems.

Granted it get's about 7.2 mpg at reasonable speeds and below 6 if you keep your foot in it. But you can set the cruise control at 65 and it'll be happy until the next gas stop.

In reply to Toyman01:

Put the diesel exhaust on it from the y pipe back and it will behave much better.

We modded my grandfathers F250 with a 460 that way. 460 is so choked down in those trucks. Should be knocking on 500 hp with very little work.

Appleseed wrote: Try doing this with a small block.

So what kind of horsepower are you going to make with that and how much does a set of those head set you back?

I don't think anyone is arguing the '800 hp easy button is a big block' statement, but if you want an easy 400 hp, grabbing a 5.3 from the junk yard with a used cam and tune sounds easier/cheaper/lighter than grabbing a late 70s big block with 8.5:1(?) compression and tossing $2300+ worth of Edelbrock top end kit at it.

I'm not arguing the fact that you can make more power in big blocks due to things like bore spacing and massive ports. It's just that a modern 'small' block pushed the line of effectiveness between the Small Block to Big Block back past 500 or 600 horsepower. Maybe more?!

Flight Service wrote: In reply to Toyman01: Put the diesel exhaust on it from the y pipe back and it will behave much better. We modded my grandfathers F250 with a 460 that way. 460 is so choked down in those trucks. Should be knocking on 500 hp with very little work.

Wiki states (...sigh) that the last few years of the 460 in the F-series was only rated for either 230 or 245 hp. What did you do to double the horsepower?

In reply to RossD:

Average Peak Horsepower Over Three Pulls: 981.67

Average Peak Torque Over Three Pulls: 863.33

Remember, this thing is 599ci and naturally aspirated.

And I never implied it was cheap.

In reply to Appleseed:

So its not cheap? Well we are on GRM!?!?!

Nice numbers by the way!

Doesn't GM offer 454ci LSx blocks and rotating assemblies now?

In reply to Bobzilla:

I don't think that would be considered a 'big block'.

And after all of this discussion, I think that factory big blocks are dead and gone. Proven by their new car/truck production numbers; NONE! Oh, bespoke (even Corporate bespoke) big blocks like Appleseed's are striving in a niche market but when it comes to performance cars in our little corner of the automotive world known as GRM land, they are relegated to similar position as the Ford flat head V8. Or reliable horsepower over some imaginary line... lets say 600 hp. Below that I'd think most would go for a wild, newer engine, rather than some 50 year old engine that some old fart is trying to keep matching numbers for the latest auction. Or a 30 year old engine that needs $3000 over the top of the purchase price.

Sure they will live on for years yet in some truck and towing applications, but in terms of being in the car, on the trailer being hauled to the road track by said truck; I'm just not seeing it.

Whens the last time someone here took out the old SBC or SBF from a Mustang/Camaro and dumped in a big block, compared to newer V8s? The Ford Mod motor is sore point in this argument due to it's size and their silly 2,3, or 4 valve arrangement and how compact the LSx engines are.

In reply to RossD:

Never, because most of my Camaro/Mustang customers are concerned more with numbers matching than performance.

I know the LSX isn't a big block, but if the only thing the big blocks had going for them (more displacement), then wouldn't this negate their benefits?

I drive a big block. I've got the 2.4L instead of the 2.0L (or 1.6L in non-US markets). Big block 4-banger FTW!

Appleseed wrote: Try doing this with a small block.

Those are adorable! Good friend of mine has some ported Ford Cleveland 4V heads(commonly referred to as "4 bbl head"). You can camp out in their intake ports. Problem with them is the port velocity is super crappy below 4k rpms that they have no bottom end.

This is the only pic with a hand I could find. Keep in mind his are mildly ported and I think these are stock.....

I am actually going to be pulling apart a 4v Cleveland tomorrow.

My first car was a 429. Not a Boss (wrong parents for that but its ports were the same size as a 4v Cleveland. And they were bigger than oval-port BBCs.

Knurled wrote: I am actually going to be pulling apart a 4v Cleveland tomorrow. My first car was a 429. Not a Boss (wrong parents for that but its ports were the same size as a 4v Cleveland. And they were bigger than oval-port BBCs.

Yeah, I'm a GM guy but those heads flow some serious amounts of air. Not really useful though unless you're building an engine to run large ovals at high rpms.

RossD wrote:

Flight Service wrote: In reply to Toyman01: Put the diesel exhaust on it from the y pipe back and it will behave much better. We modded my grandfathers F250 with a 460 that way. 460 is so choked down in those trucks. Should be knocking on 500 hp with very little work.

Wiki states (...sigh) that the last few years of the 460 in the F-series was only rated for either 230 or 245 hp. What did you do to double the horsepower?

This thread is like those talks with the guys who aren't car guys but are all "back in high school I had a 1981 Z28 Camaro and that thing would do like 200mph and beat Ferrari's man!"

Bobzilla wrote: I know the LSX isn't a big block, but if the only thing the big blocks had going for them (more displacement), then wouldn't this negate their benefits?

The GenIII/IV engines have the same bore center limitation as everything else. It's not about "displacement", it's about how much space can be between the bores (more cooling), how large the bores can be, and that leads to how large the valves can be. An engine's ultimate power potential is almost directly correlated to how much intake valve area it has.

That architecture is doing phenomenal work with respect to port flow despite being hampered by relatively small bores.

Of course, in today's production reality, the engines are already pretty much at the limit of how large a bore can be and still have a good (fast and clean) combustion process, so it doesn't really make sense for a big-block to exist.

Besides, again in today's production climate, a supercharger nestles very nicely in the intake valley...

RossD wrote:

Flight Service wrote: In reply to Toyman01: Put the diesel exhaust on it from the y pipe back and it will behave much better. We modded my grandfathers F250 with a 460 that way. 460 is so choked down in those trucks. Should be knocking on 500 hp with very little work.

Wiki states (...sigh) that the last few years of the 460 in the F-series was only rated for either 230 or 245 hp. What did you do to double the horsepower?

Truck engines have teeny tiny cams and low compression so they can run forever with the throttle bolted to the floor.

A little compression bump, a healthier cam, better intake and exhaust manifolds, you can really make a 385 sing.

Bobzilla wrote:

Knurled wrote: I am actually going to be pulling apart a 4v Cleveland tomorrow. My first car was a 429. Not a Boss (wrong parents for that but its ports were the same size as a 4v Cleveland. And they were bigger than oval-port BBCs.

Yeah, I'm a GM guy but those heads flow some serious amounts of air. Not really useful though unless you're building an engine to run large ovals at high rpms.

Actually, not really Per standard practice, Ford made up for earlier sins by swinging the pendulum too far in the opposite direction. The Cleveland ports (especially the 4v heads) are HUUUGE and they are big in all the wrong places. The coss sectional area varies too much and there is a large dead spot in the floor of intake and exhaust. You can increase velocity and flow by filling the bottom third of the ports. MPG Head Service used to sell port plates for this.

And then there's the old thing they used to do where they milled a section of the head away and put a new section in its place...

You can see the remnants of the old exhaust ports under the new port plates.

I've also seen this done on 385-series heads. Ford traditionally had really cruddy exhaust ports because of the cramped chassis they had to design around. I note with interest that the BBF posted earlier in thread has aftermarket high-port heads.

And then there's this.

For reference, this engine has a tall deck height and a wider bore spacing then a BBC.

BBC head in foreground for comparison...

iceracer wrote: big bocks are alive and well in the north east modifieds.

They are the most awesome sounding Racecars on the planet. The only car I think I would consider putting a big block in are C3 Corvettes, with a set of Hooker open side pipes.

It looks like they are even dying at Bill Mitchell/World Products. I was going to post a link to the 632 street engine they used to sell that had a 2 year 24,000 mile warranty, but it looks like it drag race only now.

I always kinda wanted a 632...

http://www.theengineshop.com/products/engine-kit-packages/big-block-chevy-engine-packages/big-block-chevy-632-drag-race--engine-package.html